There has been a trend that I find somewhat disturbing. Others of my political and religious persuasion might not find it so, but I insist that it's at least unfortunate. That trend would be the exodus of liberal commenters from visiting my blog. For some, it's enough to be able to publish their opinions and feelings and leave it at that. I expect that some do not even welcome opposing comments of any kind. That has never been the case here. I've said before and maintain that I hope, through my blog, to persuade or be persuaded. That I've failed in the former seems only to bother me. It's the latter that has brought about this exodus.
I am often accused of being stubborn, controlling, intellectually lazy, apathetic (that's a new one---I don't get it) and a host of other adjectives. That's all fine. What isn't is a poor argument for why any of that might be true. Let's look at some examples of scenarios common here at Marshall Art's:
Homosexual marriage and the Bible: In this debate, my position has rested upon one simple fact. The Bible teaches that homosexual behavior is sinful. The counter arguments range from distorted interpretations of original language, to convenient insistence that OT laws no longer apply, arguments from silence, and a wide variety of variations. Nothing has ever been presented that trumps one salient point, which is that it is the act itself that is prohibited with absolutely no Biblical discussion whatsoever regarding the intention, though process, attitude or whatever, behind the commission of the act. In other words, whether the act be murder, theft, lying, having sex with a goat, or merely having sex with someone of the same gender, we are simply told not to do it, and one's mental or emotional state has no bearing. It doesn't matter if I have a loving, monogomous relationship with my neighbor's wife, or if I'm doing her just for the fun of it, the teaching simply says, DON'T. No one's ever presented anything that trumps that fact, yet I'm the one who is being controlling, as if I, and not God, instituted the law.
Abortion: Against a horde that accuses us conservativeChristianrightwingfacists of being anti-science, just the opposite occurs. Science supports the pro-life position without question, but the pro-abortion crowd denies that without support of any kind.
In other areas, I have had thown at me demands for things like peer-reviewed papers to validate the bonafides of someone I use as an expert. Another was whether my source was listed in some kind of reference index (not sure it's called that). In both cases I found that neither provides the support my opponent implied due to rampant politics that play so heavily in both. At the same time, this particular insists on referring to the opinions of a Nobel Prize winner even when the winner is speaking on something not related to his expertise (I guess just being given a Nobel means one is an expert on everything).
Recently, Ron has created a new blog, which I highlighted, but it seems so soon that he has gone off the deep end. He rejects any counter argument before one is even offered. He does exactly what he claims is the reason for his new blog. He hasn't so much thought out of the box, but merely created a new box in which to hide.
My box has been the same all along. My arguments have remained consistent with my core beliefs, beliefs I have always stood ready, willing and eager to defend. My arguments have been clear and logical and it isn't that I'm blowing my own horn, but that despite the lamentations and protestations and accusations, I have been not been given any reason to change my mind. For all the reading done by some of my opponents, like Geoffrey and Feodor, none of it results in a good argument to change my way of thinking.
Let it be known, I've had my paradigms shifted over the course of my life. Certain beliefs have been changed to the point where I can't believe I ever thought differently. So I CAN be persuaded. I remain open to any and all arguments. I even dare others to try. If my opponents have a leg upon which to stand, at some point I should be stumped. At some point I should have no retort. It's pretty clear the opposite has been true and that's why those who have left, uh, left. They were stumped. They ran out of arguments. They had no counter. Were it reversed, they would be demanding that I concede. Were it reversed, I would have.
So their arugments that I am inflexible, unable to fathom the complexities of life, unwilling to show compassion, and all the other accusations hurled my way as the door hit them in their collectives asses, are the weakest arguements of all, for they have failed to convince themselves of their own beliefs. That's why they run.
Well, I never sought to chase them off. I never thought I was that good and still don't. So, for any who believe there's no point, for Geoffrey who delinked (not as painful as it might sound), Hashfanatic (who I think hasn't truly bailed yet), Ron, Dan, Les (who might still be lurking, being that he likes to lurk), and any other who has left in a huff, the welcome mat has never been rolled up. Don't take things so seriously or personally. Come take another shot.
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207 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 207 of 207A quick clarification, ER: it's not that I believe you hold your beliefs out of convenience.
It's that I believe you discard passages of the NT because THE PASSAGES are inconvenient to what you believe.
A denial of inerrancy would lead a person to believe that some passages are inauthentic, but it wouldn't help a person determine what is and isn't authentic.
Since you have no clear, reliable, objective standard by which you can evaluate Scripture to sift the truth from falsehood, the most likely determinant is whether a passage interferes with what you believe.
You believe X, but if a particular passage in the Bible undermines that belief, you discard it because it's inconvenient TO THAT BELIEF.
Yes, I do gauge the relative authenticity of Scriptures,. Absolutely. But not on whim, and not on what I find inconvenient. So, stop it. It's very rational. LOL.
I gauge them based on about 300 years of scholarly attention paid to the Scriptures. I trust scholars more thn I trust church leadership. I don't trust either wholly.
And I think thT what one believes is the least important aspect of what it means to be a Christian -- beyond the fact that GOD IS, to whom the Creation itself testifies, and the need for a bridge-savior-advocate-connection-Way to God from myself, which is self-evident!
D'oh! I wanted to have comment # 200.
Bubba, great points as usual.
ER,
"Nah. It's like the Constitution. That's where you start in deciding the basic parameters for our system of government, but the details. It's fleshed out in legislation, then in regulation, then in practice."
You have this wrong as well. The Constitution is what is supposed to be authoratative, in that it is the document by which legislation must conform. Doesn't always work that way, thanks to judges and justices that ALSO see that which doesn't exist between the lines.
With the Bible and religions, the latter is to conform as closely as possible with the former, being that the former is the only record available for reference.
As far as the Gospel writers, I find it remarkable that you, who believes that one is called by God alone, not with any influence by those with whom one might encounter in life, that you have trouble believing that God could not inspire or influence the Gospel writers to remember just what He wants them to, and to write down just what He wants us to know even 2000 years later.
But then, that WOULD be inconvenient, wouldn't it? That WOULD narrow the path. Yeah, it WOULD be nuts to think that 30 or 40 years later anyone could remember accurately the words of another. For YOU it would be nuts, or for ME it would be nuts, but not if either of us was walked with the Lord during His ministry and spoke with Him after He rose from the dead. Seems to me much would stick with us like it just happened for many years later. You judge the possibility as if God had no part in it whatever. That's where I think you go wrong.
It's totally natural to feel uncomfortable around homosexuals, particularly if they routinely engage in homosexual behavior. It would be like being around mafia people, or drug dealers, or hit men or any number of other sinners. Of course with you, it may require counseling as well. I don't seem to get nervous around them, myself.
That you are around more of them when in church is a problem with the church. That is, unless they are all seeking to repent and leave the lifestyle. But I don't think that's what you mean at all. Instead, there are so many in your church likely because they know that they won't hear what they don't want to hear.
You act as if people like myself don't struggle with issues with which we'd most certainly rather not. That would be so much easier for you. But it's just that we accept that the path IS narrow. So bite yourself. It is God who decided that the club will be small. Not all who call on the Lord...
ER,
"I gauge them based on about 300 years of scholarly attention paid to the Scriptures."
I think you gauge your beliefs on the wrong scholars. For example, to base anything on the work of a John Shelby Spong would be spiritually fatal, because he's a blatant heretic.
"And I think thT what one believes is the least important aspect of what it means to be a Christian..."
What one believes IS the important aspect of what it means to be a Christian. Otherwise it's lipservice.
LOL. No, take away the insistence that what one believes is most important, and you don't get lip service.
You get service -- service DESPITE what one does or dosn't believe, which is all in the head.
Would you have me pretend to believe things I don't believe? THAT would be lip service -- and dishonest.
I'll stick to striving to serve in the name of Jesus, and trying to help lives and love people regardless of what they believe, rather than arguing for Christ, who needs no advocate or defender, and trying to gain "converts."
And with that, I bid y'all peace and adieu! :-)
ER,
If you truly are saying that what one believes is unimportant when proclaiming one's self to be Christian, then you allow for absolutely any belief to be equally valid. That's about as ludicrous and childish a perspective as can be imagined.
To pretend that service is what is left begins to lean toward works as being the be-all and end-all of Christianity. Yet, somehow the simple "work" of learning what the Bible says and adhering to it, and/or preaching it to others is somehow NOT a part of Christian living. So big deal. Even assholes are nice to people they like, and they can be nice to people they don't like, or around whom they feel uncomfortable, for personal gain.
"Would you have me pretend to believe things I don't believe?"
No. I would have you understand that you believe the wrong things in some ways, likely based on "scholars" who you think sound more Christian to you. I would have you adhere to the truth which can often hurt and be difficult to grasp.
What good is striving to serve in the name of Jesus if you serve a Jesus that never existed? Helping and loving people despite their beliefs is not, nor has it ever been an issue between those like yourself and those like me. The issue has always been serving sinners as if they have no need of repenting of their sin, as if their sin isn't a sin after all, when there is no justification for that position.
I have no doubt that with you etheral description of Christianity that you could easily win far more converts than could I. Christ's way is far more difficult than what you describe.
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