Wednesday, January 07, 2009

MidEast Peace a Pipedream

A recent post celebrating an example of progress in Iraq morphed into a discussion about recent events in Gaza. This article illustrates what the main obstacle to peace truly is and thus, what needs to change, and drastically so, before a true lasting peace will ever come to pass. By extension, this change must take place if the non-Islamic world expects their own relationship with the Islamic world to also be a truly peaceful one. Because as long as Islam is influenced by those among them who believe the world must be ruled by Islamic law, because they believe Allah demands it, then the conflicts they have with Israel is only stage one and the rest of us will soon be in the crosshairs.

At this point I must clarify one point: I don't believe every Muslim is concerned with world domination or the total destruction of the Jews. I don't believe every Muslim hates Jews and there are likely those who are friends with Jews. But that's irrelevant. I don't know how I could ever tell with certainty without at least some personal relationship with a Muslim. It is not wrong for a Muslim to lie if the lie furthers the Islamic cause. And what are sleeper cells but Muslims acting like average members of society until they are called upon to unleash their own version of Islamic warfare? Their own religion means we stick our necks out farther than we would normally when we hold out a hand in friendship. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It just means we need to make sure we see both of their hands when we do.

So until they come to reject that part of their religion that teaches these hateful things, there are very few options available to us. We can't separate ourselves so that we never deal with each other. Both sides have resources the other needs. And Islamic teaching mandates that the whole world believes only in Allah and that Mohammed is his prophet. It tolerates nothing else. So separation would never last, either. And we can't just sit back and let Israel and Islam fight it out between themselves because of the same reason. We'd only be next on the list of conquests.

Fighting back is the only way. Supporting Israel in their defense of their country while attempting to support those within Islam willing to make the only changes that will lead to a real peace. It ain't gonna be easy no matter what. And those who speak out against the religious leaders of Islam do so with the knowledge that they've also placed a target on their own chests. I don't believe that Islam is a religion of peace. I just hope there are enough Muslims who want peace and that they have the courage to stand up for it.

And for those who believe Israel is targeting civilians in Gaza, scroll down a few articles from the one to which I've linked and you'll find a brief piece that trashes that notion rather well.

60 comments:

Dan Trabue said...

So until they come to reject that part of their religion that teaches these hateful things, there are very few options available to us.

I agree that the problem is that Muslims in general need to reject that part of the Islam world (a minority) that teaches hateful things. You are EXACTLY right on that front.

However, I see a HUGE number of options available to us - practically unlimited.

* We can speak with Muslims, individually, nationally and internationally.

* We can form alliances where it makes sense.

* We can embrace and support our Peacemaking Muslim brothers and sisters.

* We can engage in common work together.

* We can assist (but not in a patriarchal or colonial manner) the poorest Muslim communities.

* Churches could, for instance, send assistance to Muslim communities. At Jeff St, we helped pay a teacher's salary for a year to teach reading and work skills to desperately poor Muslims in Morocco.

* As another project, we paid for a stove for their school so they can actually attend school without freezing. We are one very small church and have managed to do programs like this the last three Christmases. Imagine the impact if each Christian church that could afford to do so embraced such missionary work! A project like that would go MUCH further towards creating a more peaceful world than all the trillions spent in our "war on terror."

Fighting back is the only way.

I agree, as long as you mean "fighting back" in the logical, non-violent way. Actually fighting back with deadly violence would be the exact OPPOSITE way of solving this problem. We fight back by isolating and marginalizing the violent extremists and pointing out the wrongness of their way. As soon as we start bombing our way to a solution, we'll end up with even more Israeli/Palestine 1000 year wars. By fighting back physically, you create martyrs, heroes, you create sympathy for the extremists. This would be the TOTALLy wrong way to go.

It's the problem with Israel's solution - it's no solution at all. They absolutely have a right to defend themselves, but if they're wanting peace, they need to find a way to do so that does not give support to the very extremists they should be marginalizing.

And we can do that in a HUGE number of ways, as listed above. Many of those approaches don't even involve Big Gov't solutions, but are the sort of thing that individuals and churches and other like-minded peacemakers can begin.

Seems to me.

Marshall Art said...

First of all, all the things you suggest are being done and have been done for quite a while. Hasn't made a bit of difference.

You also suffer from the belief that anything Israel does changes the beliefs of the Muslim world, a larger portion of it than you think there is. In fact, it is only a minority that takes to blatant violent action in their beliefs. It's far more difficult to determine how many of the rest truly support or reject that attitude. In Islam, it is not sinful to lie to a non-Muslim if it furthers the Islamic cause.

The problem in Gaza is Hamas, totally and completely. Even during what was jokingly referred to as a cease fire, rockets were being launched into Israel. There are always rockets being launched into Israel, it's just a matter of how many.

I'm confident that there must be peace loving Muslims willing to reject and change that portion of their faith that encourages hatred for non-Muslims. I just don't know how to identify them without their conversion out of Islam. But they must take the lead in changing the mood and beliefs of their own people, because without that, our efforts only make us chumps. They will use us until they are ready again to strike.

At the same time, I don't see the same kind of support for your list of options as they have been and are being applied in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So the response of Israel to the years of rocket attacks is indeed logical and appropriate and I support it fully.

Dan Trabue said...

Hasn't made a bit of difference.

Says who? How do you know? How is that being measured? By whom?

Do you have any stats/studies to support that it has made no difference? How do you know things wouldn't be worse off if these things weren't being done.

And, certainly, some of these things are being done. I've participated in some of these actions. But how widely are they being done? To what extent? Have churches across the nation and world embraced and sent support to some Muslim brothers and sisters? How many hundreds of billions of dollars have been thus spent? How many hundreds of millions of dollars? How many millions of dollars???

I'd have to see some further support beyond just your hunch that these efforts aren't effective and that even more intense efforts in this area would not be even more effective.

Lacking any evidence for your position, basic human logic and experience tells us that the more we know the enemy, the more we share meals and work together, the less likely we are to kill each other. You think otherwise? Offer some support.

Name some Muslims who have gotten to know Christians, broke bread with them, shared common work with them and then decided to kill them because it was Allah's will.

Dan Trabue said...

In Islam, it is not sinful to lie to a non-Muslim if it furthers the Islamic cause.

Again, I'd have to ask for some support for such a statement. Says who? The Muslims with whom I'm familiar I suspect would disagree. Should I believe them or you?

Marshall Art said...

Oh, absolutely. Believe me. I derive no profit from lying on the issue. You too could stand a visit to Jihad Watch to view a few vids. These would be mere samplings of what could be found if only you would open your eyes.

As to money spent, are you freakin' kidding me? Have you forgotten the recent tsunami that hit Idonesia? Have you forgotten how much money has been squandered by Sadam Hussein in the oil for food scandal? Have you forgotten the net worth of Anwar Sadat upon his death? Can you name the business in which he made his money? He pocketed aid from countries like ours, is how. We have always as a nation sought to improve relations with Middle Eastern nations and if you'd read more than lib sources you'd know that. All of those options you've mentioned have been tried, continue to be tried and likely will always be tried no matter what. My proof is that this has been ongoing since the mid 600s AD and the story has always been the same. None of it has anything to do with whether or not peace will come between Islam and the rest of the world. It has to come from within Islam itself because all the strife is a result of Islamic teachings and laws.

Marty said...

"Name some Muslims who have gotten to know Christians, broke bread with them, shared common work with them and then decided to kill them because it was Allah's will."

Here is a way that each of us can work toward peace with one another. Several of us from my church have participated in this. It was a profound experience for each of us. It has to start somewhere, so why not with me and you. This is something that each person or church can do in your own area. Find out about it. If your area does not have an Interfaith Dialogue, then start one.

It only takes a spark.....

Marty said...

"It has to come from within Islam itself because all the strife is a result of Islamic teachings and laws."

It has to come from all of us. I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard one christian or another tell me that we have to do something about "those Muslims". They don't mean make peace with them either. They mean kill them all - wipe them off the face of the earth. Sound familiar?

It starts with you. It starts with me. Plain and simple.

Dan Trabue said...

Excellent points, Marty.

The thing is, Marshall, Marty and I truly believe that Jesus' teachings to love our enemies, to overcome evil with good, etc, are not only morally expedient, they are efficient.

You listed some projects where relief moneys went to assist Muslims. I have not denied that any exist. But how much has that been? Millions of dollars? Billions? We've spent over a trillion just in this latest war (and that's just us) in violent responses to extremists.

If we want peaceful resolutions, that means we begin to invest in peaceful solutions and doing so with at least as much energy and effort (and maybe money?) as we invest in violent solutions, which, as I've noted, are counterproductive, if they only serve to legitimize those we need to marginalize.

And again, I'd have to ask, what evidence do you have that it's not working? How do we know that if our peaceful efforts thus far had NOT been in place, that things might be much worse?

In the real world, the more that I see a people reaching out to me in friendship, the more difficult it is to assume they are not in fact friends. conversely, the more I see death and destruction of my friends and family, the more likely I am to think the extremists are right. It's only logical.

hashfanatic said...

neither the muslims nor the jews are capable of peace, in their lands or ours

the only peace possible, is through absolute, unflinching force imposed upon both, by a stronger, absolute power, with allegiance only to its own, not to either one

i'll not assert myself in answering who exactly shall fill this void, lest i lead your unsuspecting minds astray

Geoffrey Kruse-Safford said...

The biggest obstacles to peace are (a) people who believe the problem lies outside themselves, or is the responsibility of others; (b) the insistence that the peace be lasting; (c) those who claim some religious precedent or other that denies the possibility of peace until some ultimate, Divine, event. There is no way to deal with this last one; one can ignore it, argue against it (how?), but alas it will always be with us, like the poor. The second can be dealt with by the simple exercise of asking how long "lasting" is; all peace accords - treaties, mutual non-aggression pacts, etc. - are contingency plans dealing with specific issues and last only as long as the parties involved see advantages to doing so.

The first, it seems to me, is the substance of this post, and it is right here that Dan and Marty have raised objections that are pretty obvious, clear, and deal with specific points you have made. As to the whole "Muslims lie all the time" thing, since you hold that position - that it is OK for them to lie as long as it furthers the Muslim cause, whatever that may be - it would seem impossible for you to ever trust even an individual you met who was Muslim, because in the back of y our mind, you would always believe that his or her friendliness was just a front, and that one day he or she would open up a can of whup-ass on you.

My own opinion, and it is just my own, is that the United States can assist in starting a real, substantive peace process by doing a couple things. First, open up our domestic debate to as wide a range of discussion as possible without calling anyone who thinks Israel might be overreacting just a bit a bunch of Jew-hating Nazi child murderers. Second, since we bankroll Israel's settlement program, the IDF, and many other parts of the state, we have a great deal of leverage should we so choose; I think it's high time we used that economic and financial muscle to push them to understand that our interests are hurt because the rest of the world believes we are bankrolling their overreaction. Our interests are not furthered by Israel's continued repression of the Palestinian people. Finally, we can focus on the real issues - access to resources - rather than get all bogged down in claiming this or that or the other religion says this that or the other thing.

Finally, we can do something even more basic. We can understand that the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians want only one thing. They want to live their lives unmolested by the powerful. That's all any of us want. They want to raise their families, work their jobs, go to school and the market without fear. The blame game - who shot first, or who pushed whom out of the land - is an issue for historians at this point. Dealing with specific issues a step at a time, rather than seeking comprehensive settlements on all issues, seems to me the best way to move forward.

Marshall Art said...

Marty,

I don't advocate violence against anyone because of their faith, I advocate violence against those who refuse to reject violence against me, or my friends. This is Gaza in the simplest terms.

I also don't deny some Christians wish to wipe out all of Islam as a matter of principle. I don't agree, but wonder if that in the end might be the ONLY solution. I don't even see how it would be possible. This conflict is likely to last until the end times and might even factor in its coming about. All speculation for sure, but my proof is derived from 1500 years of human history in dealing with Islam. (Dan take note)

I once (at least) mentioned a US Ambassador asking those controlling the Barbary Coast (back before we had a Navy) about their actions in that crisis. The answer was as if Osama bin Laden was speaking. You could switch names as it was almost verbatim the exact same rhetorc we've heard from people like bin Laden.

"There is only one God and that is Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet."

This is their bottom line. They are directed to make all the world agree with that statement. It is not like Jesus telling us to spread the Gospel. It is a mandate to force Islam upon the world. If they allow another religion to exist, it is to be subservient to Islam as well as financially supportive. They will not tolerate preaching anything else but the above quoted statement.

I will admit, that as one moves farther from the source (the MidEast) this attitude softens a bit. Western converts to Islam are not aware, or do not feel compelled to comply with these tenets. Some outright lie about it.

Marty. You said "It has to come from all of us." I'm saying that what we do has no affect on those people who perpetrate the terrorism and the people who, while not down with the acts, don't see it as a problem. I live next door to Muslims. They are from Bosnia. I don't see them as the bow down toward Mecca five times a day variety and I don't even think they attend a mosque, even at Christmas and Easter. We get along famously and I don't see them as the type to automatically hate Jews just for being Jews. (I could be wrong, the subject never came up) He's a liberal, but like his faith, I don't hold it against him. I say this to re-iterate for people like Dan, that I'm not speaking out with blanket statements about ALL Muslims.

But my points regarding from where the process must begin remains and I stand behind them. When Islam lays down it's weapons and it's hatred for Jews, peace will come about easily. Until that happens, we simply have no choice but to slap down any sources of violence and terrorism in the harshest terms. They KNOW where we stand. They KNOW we seek peace. They use the knowledge against us with every opportunity.

Platitudes won't cut it. It hasn't in 1500 years. Politics and diplomacy is seen as an opportunity to re-arm. To get an edge. This is indisputable.

And for Dan, billions+ has been spent in aid to the Palestinians and other Muslim nations over the years. This also is indisputable and easily verified. It hasn't made a difference to their ideology. You think violent response has been unproductive. This is nonsense. With every Hamas, Hezb'allah, AlQueda (pick your group) leader killed, there's one less asshole devising ways to kill Jews and other non-Muslims. Yet, as I have said, peace talk hasn't changed their ideology one bit.

You want proof of what I say? Visit Jihad Watch. Visit MEMRI. At Jihad Watch you'll find a video that is about an hour and a half in duration. It's worth the time. You'll hear a variety of voices confirming what I say, including Walid Shoebat, a former Palestinian terrorist who converted to Christianity. Also, I believe I've mentioned a special FoxNews ran featuring the son of the founder of Hamas who also converted.

Marty said...

Here's a link to the Fox News Report.

Marshall Art said...

Thank you, Marty, for the link.

Andrew Clarke said...

I can see exactly what you mean here, Marshall. We can extend the hand of peace, find it only gets bitten, and then we have a complete right to defend ourselves, and an OBLIGATION to defend our own. Pacifism could be appalling neglect if we stand by and do not stop cruelty and war being visited on our children. When militant Muslims cease their antogonism, Christians and the West will find better things to do than make war.

Dan Trabue said...

Marshall said:

This is their bottom line. They are directed to make all the world agree with that statement. It is not like Jesus telling us to spread the Gospel. It is a mandate to force Islam upon the world.

Says who? Is this what your decent Muslim neighbor thinks? (Or can you trust him to tell the truth - he's a Muslim, after all.)

Just because some extremists think this and because Marshall thinks this, does not make it the case.

Marshall also said:

I also don't deny some Christians wish to wipe out all of Islam as a matter of principle. I don't agree, but wonder if that in the end might be the ONLY solution.

Is that your Final Solution?

I'll pray for you, Marshall. Don't give in to the dark side, don't let your fears get the best of you.

Keep in mind, with christians making that sort of suggestion (in the end, the ONLY solution will be to wipe out every Muslim man, woman and child - including your neighbors?), that it's hardly any surprise more Muslims don't think, "Well, if that's what the CHRISTIANS think, there really is hardly any choice but for us to force them to conversion..."

That sort of thinking is the best recruiting tool for extremists and gets to the heart of terrorism.

Mark said...

There are only two ways peace will ever reign in the Middle east. If Israel gets wiped out, or if Islam gets wiped out. Neither will happen this side of the Apocolypse.

Islam is too widespread, and God will not let Israel get wiped out.

I posted on this subject at my place, Art, but as far as I know, you haven't visited.

Marshall Art said...

Dan,

Unfortunately, your Pollyanna-like view of life won't save any lives in such conflicts.

""It is a mandate to force Islam upon the world."

Says who?"


Says experts who understand the dynamics of the situation. Says 1500 years of history involving relations between Islam and the rest of the world. Says their own holy books. Says the Muslims who understand their holy books far more than you understand yours.

"Just because some extremists think this and because Marshall thinks this, does not make it the case."

Some? With an estimated 1 billion Muslims in the world, even 1% is a massive "some". Consider that Hamas was elected by the Palestinians with the knowledge of Hamas' philosophy. That indicates that the people who are not necessarily combatants agree with the philosophies to some extent. So there are those that are dead serious about the philosophies to the point of acting on them along with a percentage of the rest who aren't alarmed enough by those philosophies to keep from voting for them. That's a lot of "some" just for Gaza alone. Get your ass over to Jihad Watch and watch the videos there. One is called, "What America should know about Islam" (or words to that effect) and the other "Fitna". The first is an hour and a half long, but there you'll see "Says who?"

"Is that your Final Solution?"

No, idiot. I clearly said that I wonder if it might be. I'd much rather the scumbags have an epiphany and drop their "My way or the highway" attitude. What a stupid question and insinuation!

"Keep in mind, with christians making that sort of suggestion..."

Better that YOU keep in mind that it doesn't freakin' matter what I think, what YOU think or what anyone thinks. They've already taken the position that they're ready to kill us or die trying. Whether the whole of Christianity loves them or hates them is irrelevant to what they have in mind. Thus, the possibility that wiping them out might be the only solution is not a cause of anything but a reaction to a standing attitude that has endured for 1500 years.

"That sort of thinking is the best recruiting tool for extremists and gets to the heart of terrorism."

This sort of thinking is asinine to the extreme and fails to resemble reality. The notion that, for instance, that our actions in Iraq served as a catalyst for provoking more enlistment to terror groups is stupid. It's not as if some jerk was flippin' burgers and said, "Those damned Americans! How dare they! I'm gonna go find out how to join AlQueda and be a terrorist!" No. They were already of the mindset, like so many other sleeper cells, just ready to go. Lamebrains like you like to insist that these assholes are provoked to terror by something the rest of the world is doing. That's only true insofar as the rest of the world isn't rushing to be Muslim.

I've said this before, but it's worth saying again. Your Kumbaya notions couldn't get one single street gang to disarm and join the rest of society, and those guys DO seek to avoid death. You've got far less chance with devoted Muslims in the Middle East. That's a fact.

Dan Trabue said...

Fear is a terrible thing, Marshall. It does things to one's soul and mind.

hashfanatic said...

"There are only two ways peace will ever reign in the Middle east. If Israel gets wiped out, or if Islam gets wiped out. Neither will happen this side of the Apocolypse.

Islam is too widespread, and God will not let Israel get wiped out.."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7817019.stm



Thursday, 8 January 2009

Vatican deplores Gaza situation

The Pope's justice minister, Cardinal Renato Martino, has sharply criticised Israel's actions and likened the Gaza Strip to a "big concentration camp".

Correspondents say his words mark the Vatican's toughest comments since Israel began its offensive with intensive air attacks 12 days ago.

He accused both sides of only thinking of their own interests while innocent people paid the price.

Pope Benedict XVI has already called for an end to the conflict.

Cardinal Martino, president of the Vatican's Council for Justice and Peace, made the comment to Italian online site Il Sussidiario.

"Defenceless populations are always the ones who pay," he said.

"Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp.".....

Marty said...

That's because it is a concentration camp.

A friend of mine has been to the occupied territories more than once. On January 6 NPR's Talk of the Nation aired the program The U.S. Government's Influence Over Israel. She tried to call in but could never get through so she left the following comment.


"As an American who has visited the Occupied Territories, I can say I am horrified at the actions of Israel. To have a true picture of the consequences of living under military occupation one must see it to believe it. I went in order to wade through the propaganda and what I saw was an entire Arab population oppressed and demoralized. The feeling of sitting next to a nurse who worked for the UN while she told me about the daily malnutrition she saw in children will stay with me for the rest of my life; it was a feeling of utter helplessness and frustration at the situation."


Jenn has a blog, but it is private so only family and friends can read it. She plans to write her thoughts on the current situation very soon and I hope she will let me post it on my blog.


"Your Kumbaya notions couldn't get one single street gang to disarm and join the rest of society",

Actually, you're wrong Marshall. My friend Jenn does exactly that using principles that Dan would be proud of. She has a Master's Degree in Counseling Psychology and works with gang entrenched youth, addressing social and individual issues that lead to gang violence. Also, she is planning a trip back to the Middle East in the spring to focus on the Iraqi refugee crisis.

Mark said...

"Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp."

Actually, it more resembles an inner city ghetto. When Israel agreed to turn Gaza over to the Palestinians, they moved in and promptly began to trash it.

Moreover, their main purpose for demanding Gaza in the fist place was to gain a position in close proximity to Israel for the purpose of launching rocket attacks on Israel's civilian population.

They got what they wanted, and they are reaping the whirlwind of consequences for their murderous endeavor.

hashfanatic said...

"Actually, it more resembles an inner city ghetto..."

sure, but, to expand on the israeli apologist's favorite analogy...if the residents of harlem, compton, and south side chicago were to fire a few bottle rockets, our military would most likely not carpet bomb them relentlessly for two weeks

"When Israel agreed to turn Gaza over to the Palestinians, they moved in and promptly began to trash it..."

the settlements, yes, but not in the teeming urban areas that are being discussed here

besides, would that have been prior to their assets being frozen, or subsequent to it?

"Moreover, their main purpose for demanding Gaza in the fist place was to gain a position in close proximity to Israel for the purpose of launching rocket attacks on Israel's civilian population..."

odd spin, since israel themselves set up gaza exactly as such a ghetto, and used disengagement as a weapon against their own

"They got what they wanted, and they are reaping the whirlwind of consequences for their murderous endeavor..."

no, we got what YOU wanted, the jews got their genocide, and five billion yearly of our hard-earned greenbacks, and that is definitely NOT in accordance with my wishes on the matter, much less My Lord's

methinks it's time, for a radical shift in policies, for some quarters

Marshall Art said...

"Fear is a terrible thing, Marshall. It does things to one's soul and mind."

Then man up, Sparky. Face reality instead of pretending in fantasy and platitudes. It's difficult, but it's the mature, responsible and indeed, Christian way to deal with life.

Hash,

The Pope can believe what he likes. He's entitled to be wrong just like Dan is. The misery of the Palestinian people is self-inflicted. Even now, Israel still moves humanitarian supplies into Gaza. Even now, Israel allows the injured into Israel for medical attention. If Hamas had a spine, and the people had less Jew hatred, fewer civilian casualties would take place.

Marty,

Has Jenn spent equal time in southern Israel? She'd likely be horrified with how often air raid sirens go off, at how often she'd need to run for cover. What a surprise that someone might visit a cesspool and witness suffering. Perhaps on her next visit, she might recommend that they STOP SHELLING ISRAEL and focus on their own business.

Also, I didn't say "one single street gang member. Getting one to leave a gang is not remotely the same as getting the whole gang to drop their philosophy and adopt another. When she's able to get an entire gang to give up their turf, their guns, their drug and prostitute income and become productive members of society, then we'll talk.

"...if the residents of harlem, compton, and south side chicago were to fire a few bottle rockets, our military would most likely not carpet bomb them relentlessly for two weeks"

Bottle rockets? That's stupid. If the residents of those neighborhoods used their homes and schools for the production and storage of weapons on the same level as Hamas, fired rockets and mortars (bottle rockets! sheesh!) into the surrounding neighborhoods, sent their kids, women and mentally deficient into clubs, restaurants and other public places with explosives strapped to their bodies, and engaged in other actions that are routine for Hamas, you'd see nothing from law enforcement and/or federal officers or troops that resembled anything like "restraint". You may, however, recall that about 10-15 years ago (perhaps more), there was a gang that owned or controlled an entire apartment building in some eastern city in America. It might have been Boston. It was a source of much crime activity. The cops leveled the place. Literally. I don't think they were launching rockets and mortars, either.

"the settlements, yes, but not in the teeming urban areas that are being discussed here"

From which rockets are made, stored, and launched.

"besides, would that have been prior to their assets being frozen, or subsequent to it?"

What dif would it make? Money isn't the issue. Destroying Israel is. Having or not having money doesn't change that or they would have spent the billions in aid money on improving the lives of their people.

"odd spin, since israel themselves set up gaza exactly as such a ghetto, and used disengagement as a weapon against their own"

Nonsense. None of that area belonged to "Palestinians" in the first place. Until it was turned over, it was intended for Israelis whether it was land over which they argued or not. Don't forget, there never was a Palestine, a Palestinian culture or language or people. There were Arabs and Jews (and others) living in an area referred to as Palestine, a name given to the area by the Romans after putting down a Jewish revolt in ancient times. It was named by them for the Philistines who once lived there to further remove any trace of Jewish control of the area.

"no, we got what YOU wanted,"

More stupidity. "WE", like Israel as well, want the Pallies to cut the crap and live in peace and harmony without teaching their kids that the Jews are to be destroyed. And genocide? You're an idiot. Genocide is what Hamas is hoping to perpetrate upon Israel. Pay freakin' attention.

"methinks it's time, for a radical shift in policies, for some quarters"

Exactly right. The Palestinian, indeed the entire Islamic quarter. It won't end until they stop hating Jews.

Marty said...

Has Jenn spent equal time in southern Israel?

Yes, she has been to Israel.

"When she's able to get an entire gang to give up their turf, their guns, their drug and prostitute income and become productive members of society, then we'll talk."

She does what she can with the resources she has at her disposal. She deserves a jewell in her crown for what she has done and is continuing to do. Shame on your attitude.

hashfanatic said...

marshall?

the idf always, ALWAYS lies about their crimes...

http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/01/08/the-idf-ground-force/

"In Beit Suhur outside Bethlehem, I have seen IDF troops shoot at Palestinian Christian women hanging out laundry in their gardens. This was done with tank coaxial machine guns from within a bermed up dirt fort a couple of hundred yards away, and evidently just for the fun of it...."

feith, wolfowitz, and perle are cackling with glee....

Marshall Art said...

Marty,

I believe you misunderstand. I am not disparaging Jenn's efforts with gangbangers in the least. I am disputing the notion that her successes prove that her methods would have the same impact on the entire gang, or, more importantly, with Islamic radicals that believe the only real guarantee of heaven requires killing Jews. She may do a fine job with individuals. Why would I dispute that when it has no bearing on the issue at hand. I simply said it's not the same as changing the paradigm of the entire gang. My apologies for the confusion.

Marshall Art said...

Hash,

Criminals lie about their crimes. Hamas lies about their crimes. What's your point? That because like every army they have some bad apples that such is an indication of national policy? You seem to think I've put forth the notion that Israel is perfect. Where'd you get that from? Assuming everything in the story is true, and why the hell wouldn't I if it supports YOUR side of the story, how does that simply not add to the misery the Pallies brought upon themselves? Would those IDF soldiers be there if Hamas was NOT rocketing Israel? I don't think so. Tell you what, Hash. Why don't YOU go and spend a few years fighting a force that blends with the civilian population before striking. YOU try living in a situation where anyone walking near you who looks the least bit Arab might be about to set off his shorts. Let's see if YOU don't develop a quirk or two. Do I condone such practices as described in your link? Of course not. But such anomalies don't add up to "Israel is an oppressor". It only means they have some assholes among them. Hamas is comprised of assholes. It's on their freakin' business cards. And as far as lying goes, it is part and parcel of the methods of Islamic extremists.

hashfanatic said...

marshall, bottom line is, fifty percent of the innocents your savage friends have slaughtered, have been women, and children

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6ojm62qwA

i guess, if you think you know it all about a subject you cannot possibly have any comprehension of, belitting my spiritual leader's opinions as more worthy than yours is pretty much a snap

for shame, marshall, for shame

"Why don't YOU go and spend a few years fighting a force that blends with the civilian population before striking..."

hmmm, something tells me, you've got more spare time on your hands these days...:)

truth is, there IS no distinction between civilians and "Hamas" fighters, one day of indiscriminate, savage bombing, and deliberate murder of un and relief personnel is not "collateral damage", it's outright savagery

you are always quick to take credit for victories you conflate in your own mind, perhaps its time to take your level share of responsibility for the senseless death and destruction you cheered on, now that the cat is very much out of the bag

Marshall Art said...

Hash,

Your link has been offered earlier by another commenter and has garnered my response. In short, this doctor has no idea about the intentions of a given Israeli action and gives no indication that he has any idea about what any building in the area might house. His opinions have little value without such knowledge. They are understandable from one viewing the carnage, but his understanding of what's going on is limited.

Again, use of words like "slaughtered", "indiscriminate savage bombing" (which is what Hamas does as a matter of routine) and "deliberate murder" (which is also SOP for Hamas, but not for Israel even if it happens more than we'd like) demonstrates it is YOU who lacks comprehension. It is obvious (not that it wasn't from long ago) that you are a Jew-hater. This is sad, especially in light of recent, cogent and articulate comments on other topics.

I don't know what you mean and of whom you speak when you mention a spiritual leader. (Are you Muslim?) How have I belittled his opinions. You're not clear here what your meaning is, and I cannot comprehend what isn't clearly stated.

As for comprehension, back when Vanessa Redgrave marched, I used to wonder what was the problem with Israel? It seemed they were being very discriminating and as victims of Nazi horrors, it didn't compute. But I watched, and read, and learned, and came to comprehend. And the suffering of the Palestinians is self-inflicted. It can only be brought to an end by their disarming and the rejection of their hatred for Jews. If they would only try it, they would see. And you would, too. But as that is unlikely, you pretend it isn't true.

"hmmm, something tells me, you've got more spare time on your hands these days...:)"

Could it be the post where I said I got laid off from my job?

"truth is, there IS no distinction between civilians and "Hamas" fighters,"

On this we agree. It increases the possibility of further suffering. If Hamas maintained a separate dress and location from their civilians, fewer civilians would suffer. Since they don't love their own people enough to do so, they are responsible for the suffering.

"you are always quick to take credit for victories you conflate in your own mind, perhaps its time to take your level share of responsibility for the senseless death and destruction you cheered on, now that the cat is very much out of the bag"

What victory have I celebrated? What joy have I expressed for the deaths of either side? I'm sensing you understand the futility and baselessness of your position, and that no matter how you spin it, no matter what little negative episode you can dig up, you still can't get around the fact that it all ends when Palestinian hatred for Jews does.

Marty said...

Marshall, apology accepted. Again thanks for the conversation. It's always interesting.

I'll leave you with this one.

Mark said...

"It is obvious (not that it wasn't from long ago) that you are a Jew-hater."

Oh! That's right! I had forgoten that Hash is anti-Semitic! That puts his arguments in perspective, doesn't it?

Here's something I don't understand, and will likely never get an explanation:

Why does one who claims to believe in God hate God's chosen people?

Please answer the question directly, Hash, if you can. I'm dying to know.

hashfanatic said...

well, marshall, i'l respond to your sillier little evasions

firstly, i'm not "hating" on anyone, it's not in my playbook (which, i might add, happens to be the original version)

and, furthermore, it's irrelevant to the topic at hand

hate never killed anyone, any more than love ever really saved anyone from death, this is all typically humanist revisionist claptrap, designed to distract the reader from who's really behind the scenes

KILLING is what kills, for whatever reasons, the cause affects the final result not in the least, whether just or unjust

"This is sad, especially in light of recent, cogent and articulate comments on other topics..."

marshall, what's sad is, your inability to even read, examine, analyse, discern and internalize clear intelligence from the facts on the ground, and your pussified response to any challenge regarding israeli war crimes, that the israeli government itself is not denying, and the human rights violations that have been proven, and disseminated, for public consumption

we have had similar discussions before, and you still cannot accept incidents as far back as the uss liberty, the jonathan pollard espionage breach, the numerous 1970s terrorist bombings on american soil, by jewish extremist groups, and the continued covert development of nuclear weapons, in which israel lied to america, and the world, repeatedly

so, you turn around and ascribe non-existent and irrevelant slurs through personal attack, forgetting that, up until the atrocities and the refusal of humanitarian aid and basic medical services began, i SUPPORTED the citizens of sderot, and understanding the idf would eventually have to retaliate, despite the assassination of eight hamas leaders the night after barky's election, a sure provocation on the part of the jews

"I don't know what you mean and of whom you speak when you mention a spiritual leader..."

well, i happen to be one of them thar Fish-Eatin' Papists(tm), to have the words of the spiritual leader of the world's largest christian denomination casually tossed aside, would appear to be rude and ham-handed on your part, at the very least

"Why don't YOU go and spend a few years fighting a force that blends with the civilian population before striking...."

not my civilian population, marshall...you seem to have a real disconnect with the reality that modern-day israel is not the united states of america's 51st state

""truth is, there IS no distinction between civilians and "Hamas" fighters,"

On this we agree. It increases the possibility of further suffering. If Hamas maintained a separate dress and location from their civilians, fewer civilians would suffer. Since they don't love their own people enough to do so, they are responsible for the suffering...."

i don't think you understand, marshall...i am saying that the IDF makes no distinction between terrorists, civilians, women, children, when they go out to kill

it really is just another dead raghead to them, i've had several of them tell me as much, and that's where i'm contesting your protestations of innocence of purity, against overwhelming evidence to the contrary

"As for comprehension, back when Vanessa Redgrave marched, I used to wonder what was the problem with Israel?.."

what, on God's Green Earth(tm), is your obsession with vanessa redgrave? does she REALLY stand out alone, in your memory bank, as the standard bearer for ALL who protested the liquidation of the palestinians, over thirty years ago, LOL??

she certainly had the right to protest, but what exactly was it about her contribution that made her in any way noteworthy, other than her presence as an actress?

at least trade up to annie lennox, she at least sings and looks better

"But I watched, and read, and learned, and came to comprehend..."

but, what exactly have you learned? you're very much in the situation, where you want a desired outlook, and all the facts must be distorted to reinforce your theory, rather than the reality of the facts on the ground, and our complicity as a nation, in it

i think you're not well-informed, when it comes to the history of the middle east in general, and israel in particular

i've not seen you refer to one author or "opinion leader", that is not either a right-wing jew, a christian zionist, a pre-millenium dispensationalist, or anyone not thoroughly entrenched in the philosophies of neoconservative thought, so i assert your frame of reference is totally one-sided, almost as if i preached from markos moulitsas' writings daily, God forbid

your refusal to even consider any rational, credible, remotely impartial source of information and the very clear images of destruction, the indictments of the idf by respectable us-based relief agencies enrages me, precisely BECAUSE it's completely rooted in partisan political considerations, that reveal NOTHING

"What victory have I celebrated? What joy have I expressed for the deaths of either side?..."

marshall, a simple, respectful, civil, "that's terrible", or "what a shame", would have sufficed, instead of repeated, vengeful statements that they got what they deserved

who ever heard of such a sentiment, from anyone but totally self-unaware right-wing americans, with no sense of their own role in such a tragedy?

i at least can empathize with the residents of sderot having bottle rockets fired at them for extended period of time, particularly when they begged their own government for relocation assistance, only to be denied, for the israeli propaganda machine needed a bully target, to televise, and propagandize, i can recognize their plight, and i do not even believe the state of israel itself is anything but an utterly artificial, a mistaken and outmoded fantasy!

i'm saying, marshall, that i can look at them as people, whereas you show a unsettling disassociation and indifference to human life, a concept you like to pontificate on, in the context of other subjects

"It can only be brought to an end by their disarming and the rejection of their hatred for Jews..."

ridiculous, history and common sense dictates that no manufactured, western-style solution has a prayer of survival. any such "peace" would be a lie

the only externally supported solution is to either dissolve the state of israel itself, and relocate its citizens to somewhere else, far away, or for one-quarter to one-third of world islam to be liquidated

let's see who's so quick to step up to the plate to make THAT call, much less take responsibility for it

hashfanatic said...

"Oh! That's right! I had forgoten that Hash is anti-Semitic! That puts his arguments in perspective, doesn't it?..."

oh, mark, stop it! life is not a carnation instant breakfast drink, add milk and stir...

you're always forming your "perspectives" far too quickly, and uncritically, as well, imho

"Here's something I don't understand, and will likely never get an explanation:..."

why? don't i always answer your questions? maybe not to your satisfaction, but i certainly answer...

"Why does one who claims to believe in God hate God's chosen people?..."

firstly, when you yell at your children, berate them, and set them straight, are you HATING on them?

or, are you doing your job by combining the Perfect Mix Of Love And Discipline, in order to fulfill your mission on earth?

"Please answer the question directly, Hash, if you can. I'm dying to know...."

well, from a cursory examination of your blog, i'm going on the assumption that you're a dispie, right?

Because, although we are both Christians, you and I come from divergent denominations, where what we both consider "essential christian doctrine" is so wildly in opposition on many points from one another, that it's entirely possible that we'll never come to any sort of agreement on subjects like modern-day israel, works, transubstantiation, etc., and i'm entirely comfortable with that

for the time being, and dependent upon the tone in which this statement is received, i'd prefer to regard these differences as a result of the sad divisions within christianity which continue to separate us

i'd like to emphasize that my annoyance with marshall on this subject stems primarily from the fact that you are basing your unconditional support for israel on your interpretation of the bible, which, whereas i do not agree with it, i can at least chalk up as faith-based, and not worldly, ideologically, and politically motivated interests

i'm not good at theological discussions and generally refrain from participating in them, but i hope i've addressed your concerns

Marshall Art said...

Hash,

No evasions from this end whatsoever. Dismissing points made that have no relevant bearing on the topic is not evasion, it's called "staying on point".

I'll leave it to you and the Lord to determine your true feelings for the Israelis, but your statements show a decided bent toward supporting one side over the other in the current dispute which is less than pro-Israeli. In this, it differs not a whit from previous discussions on the topic of Israeli/Palestinian affairs in general. But hate does indeed kill when it is allowed to shape the policies and actions of the people who allow it to fester, and indeed nurture it within their culture. It is doing that to Israelis and Palesinians both.

"KILLING is what kills, for whatever reasons, the cause affects the final result not in the least, whether just or unjust"

Naivete.

"marshall, what's sad is, your inability to even read, examine, analyse, discern and internalize clear intelligence from the facts on the ground..."

I do all those things. You simply struggle with the conclusions which they provoke. Again, some of the "facts" which you present are irrelevant to the bottom line.

"you still cannot accept incidents as far back as the uss liberty, the jonathan pollard espionage breach, the numerous 1970s terrorist bombings on american soil, by jewish extremist groups, and the continued covert development of nuclear weapons, in which israel lied to america, and the world, repeatedly"

None of which are relevant to the bottom line, or in other words, relevant to the topic at hand. In addition, your mention of any of these without detail is adds nothing to the discussion. If you think any of the mentioned incidents has any bearing on the discussion, or means anything to the bottom line, it is incumbent upon you to supply a link and an argument in support. It's not up to me to look them up and try to see how you think they tie together. I'm betting they don't anyway.

So you're a Roman Catholic. Fine. I once was myself but remain a defender. I had great respect for the previous Pope and respect the current one so far also. However, that doesn't mean I agree with everything spoken by either and on this issue disagree completely. His words on the subject, as many as I have heard, suggest the same moral equivalency laid over this issue as has been done by you and other Pallie apologists. As such, I reject them respectfully. Needless to say, I do not consider the Pope infallible.

"not my civilian population, etc..."

Ah. Another ridiculous attempt to suggest I place Israel's interests over those of my own country. I'd hate to be a friend of yours caught in a jam.

"i am saying that the IDF makes no distinction between terrorists...etc."

You're using the actions of a few to describe the whole. Plus, even for the few, I don't believe it's an accurate description. I believe they know well, those who have committed these acts of which you believe proves something they don't, who is who but don't care for personal reasons. Hamas, on the other hand, and too much of Islam for that matter, is who truly sees all Jews in the exact same light out of religious conviction. This is an important distinction to which YOU give no relevance and hence, it is where you go wrong. To re-iterate, and I want you to repeat this to yourself several times so as not to bore me further with the misunderstanding, I do not claim the Israelis are perfect anymore than I claim sainthood for my own people. Got it? It's no more relevant to the issue than your other irrelevant points.

"what, on God's Green Earth(tm), is your obsession with vanessa redgrave?"

I have none, but nice diversion anyway. I've only mentioned Redgrave twice (OK, now 3 times). Once, as an example of celebrity know-nothings who support the Pallies without all the facts or by ignoring a lot of them, and the second time as a mere reference of a time period in relation to my own perceptions of the Izzy/Pallie relationship. Lennox is a modern day version of her, and I don't deny them their rights to protest anything.

"but, what exactly have you learned? you're very much in the situation, where you want a desired outlook, and all the facts must be distorted to reinforce your theory, rather than the reality of the facts on the ground, and our complicity as a nation, in it"

I've learned the source of the problem, which you believe to be irrelevant. What you also haven't learned, is that it is the MOST relevant piece of information. I've no need to distort any facts, which I haven't done at all, nor do I believe that any of those facts implies American complicity in anything wrong or illegal. On the contrary, refusing to acknowledge the bottom line and the source of it DOES make the charge more accurately placed at YOUR feet regarding complicity with Pallie atrocities which IS policy of their leadership.

My knowledge of mideast history is deep enough to understand the dynamics of the situation and what is necessary to bring peace to the region. That is why I feel it is likely a pipedream. I also believe that the actions of the Israelis exhibit their knowledge of history which shows why they, in general, have the moral high ground, as they have been the side willing to make sacrifices for peace, whereas the Pallies have never shown any willingness to make sacrifices. I don't count letting Israel exist as a sacrifice, but it must start there. Until they prove such a willingness, they have no basis upon which to demand anything.

You can dismiss my sources when you can prove a lack of objectivity and truthfulness on their parts. But like me, they tend to focus on the source of the trouble rather than waste time on isolated cases of Jewish bad behavior. And BTW, as far as bad behavior, though the Jews might hide or disregard examples of it from their own, Hamas frames the Jews for theirs. Indeed, their defense of their actions is based on lies about who started what. Another fact you ignore that has real meaning.

Back to sources, how do you prove the objectivity and truthfulness of YOURS, that you can so easily assume you know any lack thereof in mine?

"that's terrible", or "what a shame",

And such sentiments would provide what for you in these discussions? Would it provide what you need to realize my perspective is more sound than yours? And where do you get off judging me for the lack of such expressions? All the "boo-hoo's" in the world don't mean a damn thing if you aren't focussing on the real causes of the suffering, which you aren't. My country, with the use of my tax dollars, has spent billions over the years in aid to the Palestinians. They've wasted it. I'd feel better about it if they used it for the benefit of their people. They haven't. The aid we've sent to Israel HAS been used to benefit Israelis. I'm cool with it. BTW, Jimma Carter, anti-American extraordinare, guaranteed aid to Israel. Blame him.

"the israeli propaganda machine needed a bully target"

More evidence of YOUR lack of understanding. Israel doesn't need to lie about Palestinian Jew-hatred. It's public knowledge lacking only review by people like yourself. Peruse the archives of MEMRI's website. Listen to the words and warnings of Walid Shoebat, a former Palestinian terrorist, and the words of the son of Hamas' founder. "Propaganda machine" my ass.

"ridiculous, history and common sense dictates that no manufactured, western-style solution has a prayer of survival. any such "peace" would be a lie"

Then my point is solid. Peace is pipedream. But your assessment is totally crap. History and common sense, which can only be developed by actually understanding the history, shows that rejecting Jew hatred is THE ONLY way peace will ever matasticize in the region. It is THE SOURCE of all suffering in the region. For peace for the rest of the world, non-muslim hatred must be rejected.

"the only externally supported solution is to either dissolve the state of israel itself, and relocate its citizens to somewhere else,"

Totally unjustified, extremely stupid and evidence of dhimmi-hood infecting your soul. It IS a perfect way to give in to evil, however. Shame on you. You're supporting the success of the dark side of Islam. You must be very proud.

For myself, I don't want to liquidate anyone. I don't want to see anymore death amongst any people. So while you pretend to care about the suffering with worthless vocalizations such as "poor babies", I will continue to focus on the true causes for it, which in this case, is intense, irrational, and psychotic Jew-hatred from the radical Islamists amongst the Palestinian people.

hashfanatic said...

marshall?

you haven't been able to address ONE single point i've made here, and are simply falling back on right-wing talking points, true or false, as you continue to defend the indefensible

imho, you NEVER would have put such a post up, had you not expected that the israeli incursion was to be quickly wrapped up, surgical, cleanly executed, and wrapped up within a few days, all objectives accomplished, or, rather, if appearances had been kept up

but they didn't, because israel has recreated the horrors of the warsaw ghetto, with intentions to decimate the palestinian people, and that evidence belies your whole desire to couch this in a "oh, you're a JEW hater" vs the "hamas" terrorist meme...the cold light of day has rendered such false dichotomies unnecessary

you equate any criticism of israel with anti-semitism, which is a pronouncement that automatically ends all productive debate on the subject

i had marveled at how the latte-sipping volvo-driving contingent here had magically made themselves scarce, when other subjects have prompted almost obsessive, point-by-point rebuttals to your musings

and, then, i got it....who wants baseless slurs like "anti-semite" and "self-hater" hurled at them? for, it is only a neocon, in the history of america, who considers that a rational, civilized rejoinder to any criticism of israel or jews, whatsover....indeed, even most JEWS forsake their inner desires to scream "mommy, make it stop!" in the face of that, with which they cannot contend

israel has, imho, held whatever "moral ground" you believe to be true, only by virtue of the fact that, they are the ones with the bottle rockets being tossed at them

i again question, why is it that you believe that israel has been so determined to keep the people of sderot trapped in a clear fire zone, so determined to ensure that every instance of kassams, katyushas, etc. landed, the media was thoroughly saturated with graphic images of fallen plaster, destroyed kitchen ceilings, etc.?

many residents, like the former residents of gush katif, etc., have been deeply embittered by their government's indifference to their plight...according to your rationale, apparently all of these jews are "antisemitic" as well, LOL??

now, it's impossible to defend Hamas, but its almost as difficult to defend Israel's cruelty towards civilians, because the fact is, they often respond to incidents with harsh brutality

the us took weeks to come up with a response to afghanistan after 9/11, which, imho, dwarfed any suicide bombings in israel's history....israel start wars over kidnappings and property damage done by a few outlaw terrorists, murdering hundreds, even thousands of civilians each time, and they never even come close to getting rid of these terrorist groups!
that's pretty disgusting, imho...

israel consistently responds by with targeting civilians...it's always airstrikes, airstrikes, and more...this brutal tactic is ineffective, and, for us to be backing this savage behavior compromises our credibility around the world

labeling people "islamofascists", is absurd and justifies nothing.... how can one go about becoming an "islamofascist", LOL?

did hamas magically gain some mysterious, secret power, and start forcing jews to become muslims, LOL?

no one ever said hamas should not be attacked, but they are nowhere
nearly as powerful enough to endanger israel's existence, no matter what your commentariat preaches to you!

face it, they could easily have been taken down with a ground offensive, tanks, troops....but that would limit civilian casualties, and the jews WANT palestinian civilian casualties, to wipe out the threat they believe future generations will present

so, they continue with airstrikes,
like the cowards, and look at how many they kill in the process, and none of the victims have to do with the original rockets, hamas, or any of the other excuses they dish up to the uninformed public

BOTH sides are cowardly, and both sides should receive no further financial aid, or military support from us

israel is widely known by the rest of the world to frequently commit war crimes....even sharon, who returned some of the palestinians' land to them, was known to be a butcher as a general, and known around the world for his war crimes, and he was elected as pm by the israelis, also well-known for their war crimes

they have a nuclear program which the rest of the world was against them having...they use it to provoke the arabs and encourages them all to get their own nuclear programs, and they still continue to deny it!

in the last sixty years, has anyone got into more wars/conflicts than israel? NO!!

israel is, absolutely, the most violent country in the world

and, marshall, you support them unconditionally


israel is known to spy on america, biting the hand that feeds them, other countries do as well, but they don't get the same sort of money israel gets...also, israel has been cold busted, several times, doing it, and they STILL arrogantly continue to do it, LOL!

and, you say nothing....

israel intentionally killed un peacekeepers a few years ago, because they could report on human rights issues... it was intentional and the un called it that way as did most countries in the world....israel has, as per usual, denied it

yes, i know, neocons are taught to despise the un, therefore...none of it can be true! LOL...

israel gets far and away the most aid, much of it americans don't even know about, to a point where books have been written about... i

israel is relatively wealthy, so how is this justified? they expand settlements illegally, and they do it with impunity...if they are the most powerful country in the middle east, why should they need US support??

the way that israel is governed and its brutality has to stop, and WILL be stopped

you possess an almost kahanist defensiveness regarding the state of israel, and i am saying that, wtrouble is, when you cross that line and become the perpetrators, you don't get to play the victim anymore....

think about it

hashfanatic said...

"So you're a Roman Catholic..."

yes, i was episcopal, but my church had become too politicized (spong was my bishop). and converted to catholicism, love the church, but it is a mixed bag for me, and do not feel as though i'm being "fed", spiritually...unfortunately most mainstream protestant congregations have gone foreign-language to survive, as the protestant minority is overwhelmingly secular

so, i'll remain rc, until such point that i find a new church home, where i can retain my closeness with God, while maintaining the highest possible level of integrity and growth, that i can manage

i believe, don't leave a church, until you have another one to join up with

Marshall Art said...

Hash,

"you haven't been able to address ONE single point i've made here..."

I've addressed every point having relevance to the topic of the post. YOU'VE sought to insert "points" that are meaningless, particularly with no explanation attached as to how they might have relevance. I'm sure I've made that clear.

"...and are simply falling back on right-wing talking points..."

Nonsense. But if it makes you feel better to believe so, fine.

"you continue to defend the indefensible'

Now you're making things up. I'm defending the position that peace will only come with an internal change in the beliefs of Islam as they pertain to the total destruction of the Jewish people and non-Muslims, and how this contemptable belief is the source of the suffering of the Palestinian people as well. What's indefensible is your denial of this very basic fact.

I had no expectations regarding the duration of the current Israeli action. But it did inspire the post as I considered the source of the trouble in Gaza. Here's the kicker: whether Israel acted or not is neither here nor there. The point remains. The suffering of the Palestinian people is self-inflicted. One cannot debate this point without blatant disregard of the facts. You should stop doing that and get with it.

You have no evidence that Israel intends to "decimate" the Palestinian people. Should they decide to do so, the decision would be based on the realization that the Palestinian people have no intention of forsaking the agenda of Israeli annihilation. Walls, roadblocks and checkpoints installed by Israel have all been in response to Palestinian terrorism. The cold light of day reveals these truths to be self-evident.

"you equate any criticism of israel with anti-semitism"

No. I've equated YOUR criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism. Your constant use of terms such as "indiscriminate bombing" by Israel, which is a lie, and "bottle rockets" to describe Kassam rockets and mortars, which is also deceptive to describe their power in such a way, and other purposely misleading words and phrases lends credence to the charge that you are anti-semetic. And you dare speak of propaganda and right-wing talking points.

"i had marveled at how the latte-sipping volvo-driving contingent..."

Could we be any more judgemental?

"and, then, i got it"

No. You didn't. No one else has given me cause to suspect anti-semetism but you.

Israel holds the moral high ground even now because they do NOT seek the total destruction of the falsely named Palestinian people. Between the two, it has always been Israel that has truly held out the honest hand of friendship, willing to sacrifice territory up the wazzoo, uprooting their own people even, to achieve peace.

I do NOT believe Israel is determined to keep their people trapped. Why do you think it is the government's duty to relocate these people? Would you sit on your ass waiting for someone else to protect your family from falling rockets? Do you think the Israeli government is preventing their departure from these areas? Right.

"now, it's impossible to defend Hamas, but its almost as difficult to defend Israel's cruelty towards civilians, because the fact is, they often respond to incidents with harsh brutality"

Nonsense. You're expecting Israel to just eat it because Pallie civilians are at risk, put their by their own will and the strategies of the leadership they freely elected. Perhaps you're unaware that Israel is so uncaring that they've dropped leaflets warning Pallie civilians to evacuate for their own safety as they seek to put more hurt on Hamas. If they were as uncaring as you like to believe, why haven't they flattened Gaza completely already? Lefty talking points anyone?

"israel consistently responds by with targeting civilians"

This is a total lie and only idiots believe it. Again you seek to employ such unmitigated crap such as "proportional" responses. It is plain that you have absolutely NO idea about which you speak. You keep on with nonsense and now pretend that world opinion should guide us in this easy to determine black and white situation. You insist on ignoring absolute fact about the nature of Islam and the fundamentalists that are behind the suffering in the Middle East as well as other parts of the world where they have a presence. I've invited you to visit Jihad Watch, MEMRI and other places that show plainly the nature of the enemy and you obviously haven't made move one in that direction. If you're not willing to make yourself aware of all the facts, you're not worth my time debating.

"israel is, absolutely, the most violent country in the world"

Bullshit.

"and, marshall, you support them unconditionally"

I support them in their struggle against those who wish to erase any trace of them from the planet. This is the position I've taken and the extent to which I've expressed any support. So please stop lying about that, too.

Considering the extent of the hatred against them, Israel has shown remarkable restraint. We both know they have the capability to render Gaza a parking lot. They could easily devastate a big chunk of the Arab world. They don't and it's likely they never will. And this is while so many who surround them wish their total destruction. YOU think about THAT!

Marshall Art said...

Hash,

"(spong was my bishop)."

OH! you poor bastard. Good for you for high-tailing it. He's a heretic par excellance and no Christian. I'd have been right behind you, if not way in front of you.

"and converted to catholicism"

Which I left for doctrinal reasons. Parts of it I miss.

"do not feel as though i'm being "fed", spiritually"

That may be because it's not something that should be your focus. I've heard this complaint from others regarding other churches and don't understand it at all. I go to church to worship. Seems to me that's the point of going. Not to get, but to give. To give praise, honor and glory to God. Try thinking of it that way and see if you don't feel "full".

"so, i'll remain rc, until such point that i find a new church home, where i can retain my closeness with God,"

You shouldn't need a church for that. Prayer will maintain that closeness far better, along with diving into Scripture.

Marty said...

"That may be because it's not something that should be your focus. I've heard this complaint from others regarding other churches and don't understand it at all. I go to church to worship. Seems to me that's the point of going. Not to get, but to give. To give praise, honor and glory to God. Try thinking of it that way and see if you don't feel "full"."

Boy on this point Marshall you and I totally agree! And not only to give praise honor and glory but also to serve. The Catholic church especially gives one the opportunity to do that inside and outside the church. They are a rockbed of social ministry. I for one am glad the Methodists kept that aspect when they broke away.

Geoffrey Kruse-Safford said...

On Marshall and Marty's latest points I would agree up to a certain point (and many thanks, Marty, for the plug for my denomination!). Obviously, the point of the Church is to worship God. Yet, if our worship is hollow ritual (see the complaints in the Hebrew prophets for details) without any sense of life, it isn't worship at all, is it? This isn't a dig a the Catholic Church at all; it is, rather, to note that if a particular church does not give us space in which to breathe the Spirit, does not give us spiritual nourishment, while it may for others, it might just be this church is not the place for one to worship. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with it; it just may not "fit" us where we are, so we can give proper praise and worship to God. This is why I am a fan of many denominations - the more the better - to offer as wide a variety of options for prayer, praise, worship, and service as possible. It is a recognition, not of the brokenness of humanity, but of the abundance of diversity of the ways we human beings encounter God.

What this has to to with Middle East Peace I don't know. Just thought I'd toss that out there, though.

hashfanatic said...

"Now you're making things up. I'm defending the position that peace will only come with an internal change in the beliefs of Islam as they pertain to the total destruction of the Jewish people and non-Muslims, and how this contemptable belief is the source of the suffering of the Palestinian people as well. What's indefensible is your denial of this very basic fact...."

"pax america" is more failed neocon philosophy, born of fantasy, impossible to achieve, our buzzwords should be "benign neglect"

"Here's the kicker: whether Israel acted or not is neither here nor there..."

moral relativism is unconscionable in the eyes of a dying child, and my view of the situation is guided by the fact that israel was justified in taking action, unjustified in the fact that they chose to effect a bloodbath

"The suffering of the Palestinian people is self-inflicted..."

was the suffering of jews in wwII europe self-inflicted, then?

"I do NOT believe Israel is determined to keep their people trapped. Why do you think it is the government's duty to relocate these people? Would you sit on your ass waiting for someone else to protect your family from falling rockets? Do you think the Israeli government is preventing their departure from these areas? Right..."

marshall, life for families in israel is VERY different from the life we enjoy here....you do not wake up one morning and decide, "oh, cicero's getting bad, let's go move to skokie"...

average families live very much on the margins there, the cost of living is unreal, salaries are low, almost no one saves, in fact it is common for the family bank account to go into overdraft, intentionally, every month, and no one thinks twice of it?

would you want to relocate your family to a distant caravilla, because no one (gasp!) wants a home with those pesky kassams raining down periodically?

has it ever occurred to you that there is really nowhere to go? And, like the religious settlers, is it correct that they should be rendered homeless because they are a part of government-based social engineering they couldn't imagine would be done to them?

"Could we be any more judgemental?"

yes, because passing judgment is not always inappropriate, and i believe i have a valid point regarding liberal cowardice on the issue of israel, so cowed are they of expressing themselves, for fear of the neocon "antisemite" card (i've exposed this tactic, earlier)

it's pointless to engage in noisy demonstrations that yield little than hot air, or boycotts in a globalized economy, we have a case to make and we need start taking it to american neocons and their apologists, who have done more to ferment the middle east catastrophe than the stern gang and the irgun, put together

we need not be ashamed to know the truth, we need not be embarrassed by our passion, we simply need to be willing to teach, argue, persuade, convince, to break the cycle of failure

"No. I've equated YOUR criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism..."

so far, this is the sum total of your rebuttal to me, as i explained earlier, which neither disproves none of the points i've made, nor proves yours

it's similar to the race card being played during barky's campaign, it's invalid, because you've picked a side, like a foosball match, but declaring one side "God" and the other satan will do nothing to resolve these disagreements, or even promote understanding of the situation

the left is one hundred percent correct when they challenge, if england, france, germany,japan, etc. are also "allies", why don't american neocons give them the same sort of absolutist, blanket immunity as israel is?

"If you're not willing to make yourself aware of all the facts, you're not worth my time debating..."

dude, i'm AWARE of it, aware of the very real threat of islamic terrorism, i kinda sorta get that...*eyeroll*

i'm also saying neocons have built an industry out of it, and if you can't see the equivalent threat of other rogue nations like israel, venezuela, east timor, the congo, russia, etc., well, shame on me

and if you CAN see it, and choose simply to disregard their equivalent threats, well, shame on you

"israel is, absolutely, the most violent country in the world"

"Bullshit."

name one that is worse....

"I support them in their struggle against those who wish to erase any trace of them from the planet. This is the position I've taken and the extent to which I've expressed any support. So please stop lying about that, too...."

it's NOT a lie, marshall! i've been around here enough to see several israel-related problems come up....you support them when they are right, you support them when they are wrong, and when they are wrong, you simply claim they are right, and you think that puts you in the clear, but nowhere is there a conscious, critical examination of the facts on the ground, and basing your opinion on right vs. wrong, as opposed to we vs. they

you've even compared it to a personal friendship! that's not objective from a political standpoint, and, even worse, it's damn irresponsible when it comes to our nation's security, and the ever-changing world we live in!

"As to money spent, are you freakin' kidding me? Have you forgotten the recent tsunami that hit Idonesia? Have you forgotten how much money has been squandered by Sadam Hussein in the oil for food scandal? Have you forgotten the net worth of Anwar Sadat upon his death? Can you name the business in which he made his money? He pocketed aid from countries like ours, is how. We have always as a nation sought to improve relations with Middle Eastern nations and if you'd read more than lib sources you'd know that...."

OMG....have you no idea how MUCH money israel siphons out of our economy and our paychecks, each year??

even in a tsunami, there is at least an END to the water...

i want ALL financial aid to ALL other nations ended, if you wish to contribute to jewish charities, i heartily endorse it....but i want the public swindle ended, the amounts are involved are unconscionable, particularly when the cost of endless regional conflicts and we have our own backyard to tend to...our OWN backyard! that must be first!

all right, enough israel for one night, i honestly believe the most recent events unfolding in gaza
and the overwhelming reaction of the world, as well as a cumulative awakening among americans, support my positions, so we'll have to wait and see

remember, there can be no peace without one of the two options i've described, and most will find both repugnant, so we'd all better settle in for a long ride

thank you

hashfanatic said...

"(spong was my bishop)."

OH! you poor bastard. Good for you for high-tailing it. He's a heretic par excellance and no Christian. I'd have been right behind you, if not way in front of you."

well, it was all very unusual

i'm reluctant to call anyone's christianity into question, although there's definitely enough there to assume that he's lost his connection with The One Above, or at least gotten into complex intellectual questions that called him to a crisis of faith, maybe even a crisis of conscience.."

"Which I left for doctrinal reasons. Parts of it I miss..."

well, if you miss the music, the incense, the candles, the stained glass, etc., never feel as though you can't stop by and visit! all of my protestant/unchurched friends and relatives do

"do not feel as though i'm being "fed", spiritually"

"That may be because it's not something that should be your focus. I've heard this complaint from others regarding other churches and don't understand it at all. I go to church to worship. Seems to me that's the point of going. Not to get, but to give. To give praise, honor and glory to God. Try thinking of it that way and see if you don't feel "full"."

you know, that's a very astute, profound, and kind observation for you to make, i was thinking that even as i wrote it!

as my very devout filipino neighbor likes to tell me, "stop thinking! stop worrying! just BE, with Him!"

"You shouldn't need a church for that. Prayer will maintain that closeness far better, along with diving into Scripture..."

that's true, don't worry about it, i was just momentarily wallowing in foolish doubt, i'll probably never leave my parish

hashfanatic said...

"The Catholic church especially gives one the opportunity to do that inside and outside the church. They are a rockbed of social ministry..."

this is true, they certainly are

to a point where, sometimes, i wish they wouldn't! (i'm referring to my continued discomfort with "sanctuary churches"...)

"I for one am glad the Methodists kept that aspect when they broke away...."

sure do, here they have an award-wining, huge daycare center and learning center that truly serves all of our community...

hashfanatic said...

"This isn't a dig a the Catholic Church at all; it is, rather, to note that if a particular church does not give us space in which to breathe the Spirit, does not give us spiritual nourishment, while it may for others, it might just be this church is not the place for one to worship. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with it; it just may not "fit" us where we are, so we can give proper praise and worship to God. This is why I am a fan of many denominations - the more the better - to offer as wide a variety of options for prayer, praise, worship, and service as possible. It is a recognition, not of the brokenness of humanity, but of the abundance of diversity of the ways we human beings encounter God...."

i do, too....especially in north america, where we emphasize choices and freedom, over tradition

i remember, in quebec, for example, catholicism was the only game in town, very devout, very religious...but there were many problems and injustices, unresolved tensions under the surface....then the "quiet revolution" went down, and so many fell away from the church, but there was no real, culturally compatible alternative

so, they more or less left God, when they left the church, in staggering numbers...it's not unusual to see montrealers spitting on the parish steps, so filled with rage and resentment some are...but you see the flip side, the lack of connectivity to the Source, all of the problems that manifest themselves wherever spiritual breakdown is present...

"What this has to to with Middle East Peace I don't know. Just thought I'd toss that out there, though...."

it actually does, though, because, as discouraged as we get with seemingly impossible problems and irreconciliable differences, there is hope, and there is Hope

maybe God will be The Perfect Laborer, and use us as vessels...

i'm certainly praying about it, i'll admit, i'm at the end of my rope!

Marty said...

"this is true, they certainly are

to a point where, sometimes, i wish they wouldn't! (i'm referring to my continued discomfort with "sanctuary churches"...)"

Ah geez...I was thinking about "sanctuary churches" and the "Catholic Worker Movement" when I wrote that.

Marshall Art said...

Hash,

""pax america" is more failed neocon philosophy, born of fantasy, impossible to achieve, our buzzwords should be "benign neglect""

What the hell are you talking about and how does it relate to the quote you highlighted? This is no "neocon" interpretation of the situation. It's based on the words of those who were once a part of it and have since broken away. They are examples of the very internal awakening to which I refer. This dynamic exists without any external interference whatsoever, be it "neocon" or "peace at any cost lib". It's what you fail or refuse to understand and why your rantings are meaningless in affecting any change.

""Here's the kicker: whether Israel acted or not is neither here nor there..."

moral relativism is unconscionable in the eyes of a dying child,"


Here is more evidence of your lack of understanding. Children will die no matter what; those who are made by their asshole parents to wear explosive vests, or those who die by their detonation. Either those randomly killed by those very deadly missiles to which you shamefully refer as "bottle rockets", or those killed by Israeli retaliation due to Hamas purposely operating from among the civilian population that allows them to do so. Focus on this, Hash. It is the truth that won't change no matter what Israel does. It's just a matter of who's children, and whether any dies is up to the Palestinians.

"was the suffering of jews in wwII europe self-inflicted, then?"

No. And you accuse ME of moral relativism? Get serious. What an idiotic question! The Jews did not attack the Nazis or seek their total destruction before the Nazis began their Final Solution. The only Nazi-like behavior comes from Islamists.

Oh really? Life in Israel is different than here? No foolin'. How could I have missed that? Fool. What would stop YOU from acting to protect the lives of YOUR family? It's really idiotic to claim that the Israeli government does nothing to end the suffering of their own people just because they've fyet ailed to achieve total peace. Try again.

"so cowed are they of expressing themselves, for fear of the neocon "antisemite" card (i've exposed this tactic, earlier)"

You've exposed nothing but your lack of understanding, and your willingness to play the "neocon card".

" "No. I've equated YOUR criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism..."

so far, this is the sum total of your rebuttal to me, as i explained earlier, which neither disproves none of the points i've made, nor proves yours"


Now you're lying again. My rebuttal has been to explain the true nature of the problem, the source of it, and I've provided support for it as well. You, on the other hand, have cluttered this comments section with irrelevant information that has nothing to do with the reason for the trouble in the Middle East. Offering examples of Israeli imperfection proves only the Israel is imperfect, whereas my constant reminder of the underlying attitudes that rule Palestinian behavior toward Jews (indeed the same underlying attitude which colors Islam's worldview) remain the central issue. If those attitudes don't change, nothing changes. I haven't "picked" a side as much as been compelled by the realities there to align my compassions with the real victims. What kind of asshole aligns himself with a people for whom it is believed glory is attained by wiping out another people? Until other nations, like Russia, Venezuela, etc behave in this manner, they cannot be considered an "equivalent" threat. Which of those you've named sees death as a goal? Threats perhaps, but not on the same order as people who live to die.

""israel is, absolutely, the most violent country in the world"

"Bullshit."

name one that is worse...."


Hello? Anybody home? Those against whom Israel defends herself. They kill their own in their quest to annihilate the Jews. They kill those who dare counter Mohammed's teachings. They mutilate their own women, and they believe in death for tons of infractions as defined by their made-up religion. Have Jews made a habit of hacking the head off a bound captive?

"i want ALL financial aid to ALL other nations ended,"

And here's where it comes to a head. Money is more important to you than helping an ally. I'm fully aware of the massive amounts of aid sent there and elsewhere. I'm aware Jimma Carter guaranteed aid in perpetuity. And I'm aware of how those funds could be wasted, er, spent here. But cutting foreign aid is as much a pipe dream and MidEast peace. However, foreign aid is one way to demonstrate the character of our country as well as to secure other benefits. We can debate the justification for the aid we sent all over the place some other time. It's not pertinent to this discussion.

"events unfolding in gaza
and the overwhelming reaction of the world, as well as a cumulative awakening among americans, support my positions,"


It's no secret that much of the world, as evidenced by their reps in the useless UN believe as you do. Big freakin' deal. 52% voted for Barry O, so numbers don't mean smarts or righteousness.

hashfanatic said...

"Ah geez...I was thinking about "sanctuary churches" and the "Catholic Worker Movement" when I wrote that..."

nah, i've calmed down about that, even though i'm still dedicated to opposition to illegal immigration, and immigration....i feel as though, it's logical and the right thing for the church to reach out to them

hashfanatic said...

"It's what you fail or refuse to understand and why your rantings are meaningless in affecting any change..."

but, i'm not trying to "effect change", LOL! wrong lefty for that one...i am not personally involved with anyone else's struggle, and certainly not emotionally overwrought over it, i've already mentioned, nothing will change for the better, in the absence of decisive action

we don't have decisive leadership anymore, marshall

"Children will die no matter what; those who are made by their asshole parents..."

are we permitted to curse endlessly around here? because, i assumed i was under imperative to spew under "G" rated conventions, so as not to ruffle feathers...if expectations have changed, i'll be happy to oblige

or, you could hold the same respect for your commenters, you claim to demand for yourself....the choice is yours

"Children will die no matter what..."

what an obscene, perverted sentiment...for someone who pontificates against abortion rights so vociferously to do such an abrupt, morally inconsistent about-face, proves my adage that "they love the fetus, only to drop the baby on his head..."

"The Jews did not attack the Nazis or seek their total destruction before the Nazis began their Final Solution..."

quite arguable, but i'll let you slide on that, knowing that history is poorly and selectively taught in this country, nowadays

"oh really? Life in Israel is different than here? No foolin'. How could I have missed that? Fool...."

please stop with the fake outrage, again, you continue to lose whatever points you may have scored, when you go unhinged, and your arguments unravel

a certain amount of this would be understandable if you were jewish, but you are not, and your fevered responses only confirm that it is TOTALLY part of a dying political agenda you seem intent on resurrecting...every jew i know may disagree with my evaluation of motive, but concurs wholeheartedly that the entire operation has been a veritable disaster, tactically unsound, and leaves israel with no way out, no ability to change course, no feasible exit strategy, and unable to accomplish its alleged original objectives

which, of course, sounds frightening similar to most americans, particularly those of us who remember the downing street memo, pnac, and and netanyahu's key role in it

"You've exposed nothing but your lack of understanding, and your willingness to play the "neocon card"."

well, of course, i understand, you understand, we ALL understand

and, of COURSE, i'm playing the neocon card, because american neocons, israeli neocons, the coordinated neocon media, and those who support the neocon agenda! they are fully and totally responsible for this!

who else do we hold responsible for our own nation's failed foreign policy?? who's the scapegoat du jour? is it carter? perhaps the dailykos? soros? eisenhower? roosevelt?

"Which of those you've named sees death as a goal? Threats perhaps, but not on the same order as people who live to die..."

marshall, my point is, the situation is quite dire enough, without you feeling compelled to embellish, or over-dramatize for effect

"Hello? Anybody home? Those against whom Israel defends herself. They kill their own in their quest to annihilate the Jews. They kill those who dare counter Mohammed's teachings. They mutilate their own women, and they believe in death for tons of infractions as defined by their made-up religion. Have Jews made a habit of hacking the head off a bound captive?"

answer the question, please

what nation has brought more violence, more war, spent more money to do so, more consistently, than israel has?

morever, were america's relations with the middle east nations MORE peaceful, prior to israel's existence, or, LESS peaceful?

who has spent, over the course of the last six decades, more time, killing, maiming, torturing, and spying on its "friends", than israel has?

israel has MUCH to atone for...

"And here's where it comes to a head. Money is more important to you than helping an ally...."

absolutely, for, with "allies" like israel, who needs enemies?

besides, they no longer offer anything, of strategic importance

"I'm fully aware of the massive amounts of aid sent there and elsewhere...."

i'm not positive that you do, marshall, and i'm also not convinced that, in your mind, no amount of aid is too much for israel

"I'm aware Jimma Carter guaranteed aid in perpetuity..."

you're blaming CARTER now, for your administration's two decades of a culture of utter corruption, LOL??

let me put forth another prediction, marshall, for your benefit

in twenty years' time, streets will be named for jimmy carter!

"And I'm aware of how those funds could be wasted, er, spent here..."

sure, marsh, wouldn't want to spend money feeding the filthy goyim, when we can send it all to the jews, LOL!

listen to yourself, marshall, listen to the contempt you have for the people in your own homeland, yet such reverence for a few

"However, foreign aid is one way to demonstrate the character of our country as well as to secure other benefits..."

well, too bad, the bills are coming due

i'd expect major realignments to the "character" of such "arrangements" in the future, LOL!

"But cutting foreign aid is as much a pipe dream and MidEast peace..."

not really, when it is clearly understood that foreign aid is actually an impediment to peace, solid nations, and strong foreign policy, particularly when "mideast peace" is the real "pipe dream", and the peace itself, is a lie

"We can debate the justification for the aid we sent all over the place some other time. It's not pertinent to this discussion..."

read: "it seems as though there is absolutely no earthly reason for the us to subsidize the protectorate of israel, this oddity, in the midst of economic collapse at home, has never been so stringently examined and questioned by so many, and, in the absence of any plausible explanation for it, i have nothing to say..."

why call it as you would have it, marshall, when you can simply call it as it is??

"It's no secret that much of the world, as evidenced by their reps in the useless UN believe as you do...."

why do american neocons despise the un so? it's possible to understand israelis feeling that way, since the un actually calls them out on their crimes...but why does one small, separate offshoot from conservatism, whose purveyors indeed mostly sprung forth from left-wing radicalism in earlier times....why would THEY continually obsess over the un's existence, particularly when the un's relationship to the un is essentially passive acceptance?

no other "one world order", internationalist framework seems to inflame them at all...in fact, neocons embrace the others!

well, maybe someone will connect the dots, especially if a "fool" like myself is capable of doing so, in the presence of such statesmen and intellectual giants, LOL!

"52% voted for Barry O, so numbers don't mean smarts or righteousness..."

ah, but millions of neocons, paleoconservatives, and others associated with conservatism and/or the republican party, chose not to vote for mccain, either

so, it would seem that, either such folks were willing to passively watch barky and his agenda, if one was capable of figuring it out, prevail,
or they switched their party affiliation and jumped on barkster's bandwagon

that's a fundamental failure on the part of conservatism, not the republicans or even barky, after all, i am, as we all know, to the left of chairman mao, and I supported mccain/palin wholeheartedly

well, i despise the new left, so its my interest, not my detriment, for you people to pull yourselves up by your bootstraps and get your acts together, you'll find we meet each other's immediate needs quite well, no need for rancor




Big freakin' deal. 52% voted for Barry O, so numbers don't mean smarts or righteousness.

Marshall Art said...

Hash,

"but, i'm not trying to "effect change","

Good. Your ideas of a better direction are suspect. I wouldn't describe anyone as emotionally overwrought for either commenting on a current event, OR for responding to goofy perspectives like yours. Try to stay with the program.

"are we permitted to curse endlessly around here?"

No. But I am. However, to refer to those who strap explosives on their own kids as "assholes" is rather appropriate and quite restrained.

"or, you could hold the same respect for your commenters, you claim to demand for yourself....the choice is yours"

If you've been reading all of my posts and the comments thereafter (nothing I expect anyone to do, of course, but since you're gettin' cocky...), you'd know my concern for my visitors and the rules I've placed is for how they treat each other, inviting their invective to be aimed at me only. But keep THIS in mind, Sally: The day YOU dictate to ME how to comment is the day you get your own blog. If you see anything I type as an invitation to be as graphic as you'd like, go for it. I'll be happy to delete with extreme prejudice.

"what an obscene, perverted sentiment"

Only to those who wish to make silly accusations like you did following this quotation. Those who aren't looking to make points with false allegations will understand the point I was making was not a gleefull acceptance of child deaths at all. Nice try Skippy, but what you would have inferred had your head not been planted so far up your hindquarters is that I don't distinguish between nationalities when it comes to kids. Kids will die by Pallie hands no matter what Israel does and they will be kids from both sides.

"quite arguable"

Are you going to try to suggest that the Holocaust was somehow a result of Jewish attacks on a peaceful Nazi party? You really DO hate Jews, don't you?

"please stop with the fake outrage, again, you continue to lose whatever points you may have scored, when you go unhinged, and your arguments unravel"

Outrage? Unhinged? Over your idiocy? It's sarcasm and mockery. Appropriate for so many of your goofy attempts at intelligent argument. And as far as MY arguments, I could be wetting myself and foaming at the mouth and the premise of my argument would still be sound. YOU haven't successfully countered it yet.

"a certain amount of this would be understandable if you were jewish, but you are not,"

One only needs to open one's eyes to see my point has merit. One's ancestry is irrelevant.

"every jew i know..."

...amounts to how many? A quorum? A majority? Let's assume you know absolutely every Jew in the world personally. Let's assume they all are as stupid as you. What does the operation, the manner in which it has been conducted, or the likelihood of it's success, have to do with the point of this post?

"and, of COURSE, i'm playing the neocon card, because american neocons, israeli neocons, the coordinated neocon media, and those who support the neocon agenda! they are fully and totally responsible for this!"

That tin-foil hat must really be tight.

"marshall, my point is, the situation is quite dire enough, without you feeling compelled to embellish, or over-dramatize for effect"

I've embellished nothing. That would be you tossing in irrelevant points.

" answer the question, please "

Which one, the one you first asked, or having answered it well, the one you're now asking? Don't bother---the answer is pretty much the same. The lion's share of Israel's military actions have been defensive.

"morever, were america's relations with the middle east nations MORE peaceful, prior to israel's existence, or, LESS peaceful?"

We did not have the presence or influence then as now. However, our British allies dealth with violence in the region. And that was BEFORE Israeli statehood.

"who has spent, over the course of the last six decades, more time, killing, maiming, torturing, and spying on its "friends", than israel has?"

Islam, with the possible exception of spying on its friends, which, I believe, everyone does to some extent.

"israel has MUCH to atone for..."

Who doesn't?

"absolutely, for, with "allies" like israel, who needs enemies?

besides, they no longer offer anything, of strategic importance"


That's your opinion. Not a good one, either.

"i'm not positive that you do, marshall, and i'm also not convinced that, in your mind, no amount of aid is too much for israel"

Oh gee. How will I sleep tonight? Once again, try to stay on topic. We're not discussing the appropriate limits of foreign aid.

"foreign aid is actually an impediment to peace,"

This is just stupid.

"read: "it seems as though there is absolutely no..."

No. It should be read We're not discussing the appropriate limits of foreign aid. You wanna set the topic, get your own blog. It's irrelevant to the discussion.

"why do american neocons despise the un so?"

You mean the organization that conspired with Hussein during the Oil for Food scandal? The one that consistently puts terrorist supporting states on their Human Rights committees? The one that has no trouble existing on our soil while consistently working against our interests? The one that passes countless resolutions but never takes action with any meaning? THAT UN?

" no other "one world order", internationalist framework seems to inflame them at all...in fact, neocons embrace the others!"

Your tin-foil hat has a propeller on the top, doesn't it?

"you're blaming CARTER now, for your administration's two decades of a culture of utter corruption, LOL??"

You were spinning that prop as you typed this, weren't you? "Culture of corruption". That's funny.

"in twenty years' time, streets will be named for jimmy carter!"

In Gaza, maybe. But you've just proved you suffer from clinical idiocy. It's nice they let you use the computers at the home. Your comments are without a doubt getting wackier and wackier as this "discussion" (not that it still is one) goes on. If you wish to address the actual point of my post, feel free. I'm bored with your attempts to steer the discussion to your anti-Israeli direction. So if you can't stay on point, don't bother. I still encourage you to start your own blog where you can rant your babble all you like.

hashfanatic said...

fine, marshall, you've resorted to ad hominems and command posturing, so you've elected to bring the constructive part of this dialogue to an end

i'm certainly glad your philo-semitism at least permits you to show compassion to a tiny percentage of the world's population, my point remains that you are welcome to indulge your own philanthropic tendencies to support it, rather than picking the pockets of working americans

and, make no mistake, to extend privilege to right-wing jews alone, to the exclusion of your own stated nation's populace, IS treason, whether you'll be called upon to account for it in your lifetime on earth, or if it will come on the other side, is anyone's guess, and very much open to interpretation

sad, very sad

Marshall Art said...

What is sad is your constant framing of this issue in terms not related to reality. What is sad is your constant insistance that this discussion move in a direction of YOUR choosing as if this blog exists as a platform for YOUR goofy perspectives. What is sad is how YOU have brought this dialogue to an end by your continued re-statement of irrelevant tangents. You are welcome to indulge your own isolationist fantasies. I just don't understand why they don't also apply to visiting here. It's tiresome dealing with your skewed worldview, as I'm sure it's equally troubling for you to come here and argue against logic and reason.

I would encourage you to find a dictionary so as to familiarize yourself with the definitions of words such as "hypocrisy" and now "treason". It is NOT treason to support a nation under constant assault by pure evil, particularly an ally. Nor is it necessary to do so to the exclusion of our own, nor can you prove that that is happening, because it isn't.

blamin said...

Tsk, tsk, Hash

I’ve noticed a certain, bully-ness(?) on your part. You vainly attempt to over-intellectualize every subject you debate.

Here’s a little clue. When all’s said and done, most of today’s (and yesterdays!) hotly debated topics, in-spite of all the suggested nuances, can be summed up very well (and dealt with) with a hard and fast, tried and true, conservative principal.

The fact that yourself, or any other detractors try to spin the debate into endless circular arguments, or attempt to misdirect with immaterial nuances matters not!

For a concise (as you can get) and accurate argument I direct you to “Big Lies : Demolishing The Myths of the Propaganda War Against Israel” by David Meir-Levi.

Ya-ya I know, It’s the anti-thesis of your (and those like you) wholeconstructed view, but if you turned that oh-so giant intellect inward and actually tried to understand in a historic perspective you might well surprise yourself.

Then again, maybe not.

Marshall Art said...

Blamin,

Long time, no read. It's good to have you back. Always appreciate your input and hope to see more.

hashfanatic said...

blamin?

i don't think i've been "bullying" at all, LOL! have you only been reading my comments, without reading the responses to them, LOL??

"When all’s said and done, most of today’s (and yesterdays!) hotly debated topics, in-spite of all the suggested nuances, can be summed up very well (and dealt with) with a hard and fast, tried and true, conservative principal (sic)..."

are you planning to present one in the near future, blamin? because i wouldn't categorize any of the positions i've seen thrown around here as representative of american conservatism, imho...i've seen some social positions that are not incompatible with what many conservatives hold nowadays, although i'd argue the vehemence of the opinions expressed and the relative irrelevance to today's pressing issues might push them out of that category...

most of what i've read here, and certainly the bulk of what i've read from you, would more closely mirror neocon and even libertarian and anarcho-capitalist thought, no?

but, i'd have to disagree on that basis, for true conservatism, as i perceive it at any rate (i'm "old school, lol!) and adherence to conservative principles would not have mired this nation in the muck we now find ourselves...

"“Big Lies : Demolishing The Myths of the Propaganda War Against Israel” by David Meir-Levi...."

i'm aware of his work...

"Ya-ya I know, It’s the anti-thesis of your (and those like you) wholeconstructed view, but if you turned that oh-so giant intellect inward and actually tried to understand in a historic perspective you might well surprise yourself..."

blamin, i am the FURTHEST thing from any sort of "intellectual",
pseudo-, giant, or otherwise...

i am in fact, a simple man who lives to serve my nation, my God, and his people....

i would categorize myself as having a low to moderate level of intelligence...

what i'm saying is, why not consider freeing oneself, from the tiresome burden of intellectual conformity to failed political ideologies (and they're ALL failed, at this point, trust me), take the issues one at a time, and THINK and DISCUSS them out, rather than seeking solutions from deeply flawed, obscenely compensated eggheads who have no loyalty to anything but their own bottom lines?

It's important. Everyone has a point to make, everyone is entrusted to some level of wisdom that is received, not learned...

Marshall Art said...

I don't know if it can be categorized as a conservative principle, but what has been put forth as the point of this thread is characteristic of conservativism. That is, cutting through all the crap and distortions to get at the truth of the matter as best as can be understood based on the facts available. In the case of the situation between Israel and the Palestinians, that truth is easy to discern due to what is known of the Pallie/Hama/Islamist philosophy. We KNOW that the elimination of the Jews drives them to all sorts of savage behavior. Thus my bottom line, that peace in the Middle East is a pipedream as long as this attitude survives. Inane ideas such as dissolving the state of Israel and forcibly relocating her citizens will not change their desire to kill Jews wherever else they may be, nor will their violent behavior end with the death of the last Jew. Any policy devised by Israel or the rest of the world that fails to start with this fact will fail.

Another truth that can't be denied is the success of conservative ideology wherever implemented and maintained. It is evident in fiscal policy, social policy, and any other that can be classified in such a way. Conservative ideology hasn't failed. Those who seek to lead have failed to implement and/or support and maintain conservatism.

hashfanatic said...

Do you mean, conservative policies such as these??

http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/01/13/the-blood-on-george-bushs-hands/

Marshall Art said...

Hash,

First of all, nitwit, the policies of one man does not translate as conservative policy. That lame angle has been tried here and exposed as crap before.

Secondly, it seems you rely on this site as a favored source of tin-foil hat alarmism. That explains a lot about you.

Thirdly, what lie did Bush speak that allegedly contradicts the policy which you find so deplorable?

Fourth, to arm the lesser of two evils in hopes of defeating the greater is sound policy indeed. At least Fatah and Abbas would talk with Israel. Remove your head from its dark, malodorous place of comfort and think.

Fifth, like other loser Bush haters, your link seems to think that by banging his head upon boarding his flight, George has proven something negative about his abilities to govern as president.

Sixth, you, like your link, are a joke.

hashfanatic said...

oh, marshall, calm down....it's just that, with "friends" like these...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/01/13/2009-01-13_us_israel_in_ceasefire_spat.html

Marshall Art said...

Hash,

Thanks for wasting my time with more meaningless tripe. You obviously find sustainance with such.

BTW, I'm perfectly calm. Always am.

blamin said...

Tsk, tsk , Hashish, (you noticed the “tsk” remained)

You say you’re “aware”?

"“Big Lies : Demolishing The Myths of the Propaganda War Against Israel” by David Meir-Levi...."

i'm aware of his work...


Well then dispute it my man!!!

The fact is that Mr. M-L knows what he speaks of. You’ve left nothing to dispute his “truths”, and I suspect if you fancy yourself enough, you’ll leave a few bombs that he’s already addressed. In-other-words you’ll drop an already addressed issue.