tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post150184133451766176..comments2024-03-29T04:17:43.875-05:00Comments on Marshal Art's: MidEast Peace a PipedreamMarshal Arthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-75962175831182774682009-01-15T00:54:00.000-06:002009-01-15T00:54:00.000-06:00Tsk, tsk , Hashish, (you noticed the “tsk” remain...Tsk, tsk , Hashish, (you noticed the “tsk” remained)<BR/><BR/>You say you’re “aware”?<BR/><BR/><I>"“Big Lies : Demolishing The Myths of the Propaganda War Against Israel” by David Meir-Levi...."<BR/><BR/>i'm aware of his work...</I><BR/><BR/>Well then dispute it my man!!! <BR/><BR/>The fact is that Mr. M-L knows what he speaks of. You’ve left nothing to dispute his “truths”, and I suspect if you fancy yourself enough, you’ll leave a few bombs that he’s already addressed. In-other-words you’ll drop an already addressed issue.blaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12384502967340506264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-26459213553054196962009-01-14T14:20:00.000-06:002009-01-14T14:20:00.000-06:00Hash,Thanks for wasting my time with more meaningl...Hash,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for wasting my time with more meaningless tripe. You obviously find sustainance with such.<BR/><BR/>BTW, I'm perfectly calm. Always am.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-7350434656713964932009-01-14T13:16:00.000-06:002009-01-14T13:16:00.000-06:00oh, marshall, calm down....it's just that, with "f...oh, marshall, calm down....it's just that, with "friends" like these...<BR/><BR/>http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/01/13/2009-01-13_us_israel_in_ceasefire_spat.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-5298032139344434352009-01-14T11:35:00.000-06:002009-01-14T11:35:00.000-06:00Hash,First of all, nitwit, the policies of one man...Hash,<BR/><BR/>First of all, nitwit, the policies of one man does not translate as conservative policy. That lame angle has been tried here and exposed as crap before.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, it seems you rely on this site as a favored source of tin-foil hat alarmism. That explains a lot about you.<BR/><BR/>Thirdly, what lie did Bush speak that allegedly contradicts the policy which you find so deplorable?<BR/><BR/>Fourth, to arm the lesser of two evils in hopes of defeating the greater is sound policy indeed. At least Fatah and Abbas would talk with Israel. Remove your head from its dark, malodorous place of comfort and think.<BR/><BR/>Fifth, like other loser Bush haters, your link seems to think that by banging his head upon boarding his flight, George has proven something negative about his abilities to govern as president. <BR/><BR/>Sixth, you, like your link, are a joke.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-72188605788736213942009-01-14T00:19:00.000-06:002009-01-14T00:19:00.000-06:00Do you mean, conservative policies such as these??...Do you mean, conservative policies such as these??<BR/><BR/>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/01/13/the-blood-on-george-bushs-hands/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-3187591374538076042009-01-13T23:56:00.000-06:002009-01-13T23:56:00.000-06:00I don't know if it can be categorized as a conserv...I don't know if it can be categorized as a conservative <I>principle</I>, but what has been put forth as the point of this thread is characteristic of conservativism. That is, cutting through all the crap and distortions to get at the truth of the matter as best as can be understood based on the facts available. In the case of the situation between Israel and the Palestinians, that truth is easy to discern due to what is known of the Pallie/Hama/Islamist philosophy. We KNOW that the elimination of the Jews drives them to all sorts of savage behavior. Thus my bottom line, that peace in the Middle East is a pipedream as long as this attitude survives. Inane ideas such as dissolving the state of Israel and forcibly relocating her citizens will not change their desire to kill Jews wherever else they may be, nor will their violent behavior end with the death of the last Jew. Any policy devised by Israel or the rest of the world that fails to start with this fact will fail.<BR/><BR/>Another truth that can't be denied is the success of conservative ideology wherever implemented and maintained. It is evident in fiscal policy, social policy, and any other that can be classified in such a way. Conservative ideology hasn't failed. Those who seek to lead have failed to implement and/or support and maintain conservatism.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-9042634664334133102009-01-13T18:21:00.000-06:002009-01-13T18:21:00.000-06:00blamin?i don't think i've been "bullying" at all, ...blamin?<BR/><BR/>i don't think i've been "bullying" at all, LOL! have you only been reading my comments, without reading the responses to them, LOL??<BR/><BR/>"When all’s said and done, most of today’s (and yesterdays!) hotly debated topics, in-spite of all the suggested nuances, can be summed up very well (and dealt with) with a hard and fast, tried and true, conservative principal (sic)..."<BR/><BR/>are you planning to present one in the near future, blamin? because i wouldn't categorize any of the positions i've seen thrown around here as representative of american conservatism, imho...i've seen some social positions that are not incompatible with what many conservatives hold nowadays, although i'd argue the vehemence of the opinions expressed and the relative irrelevance to today's pressing issues might push them out of that category...<BR/><BR/>most of what i've read here, and certainly the bulk of what i've read from you, would more closely mirror neocon and even libertarian and anarcho-capitalist thought, no?<BR/><BR/>but, i'd have to disagree on that basis, for true conservatism, as i perceive it at any rate (i'm "old school, lol!) and adherence to conservative principles would not have mired this nation in the muck we now find ourselves...<BR/><BR/>"“Big Lies : Demolishing The Myths of the Propaganda War Against Israel” by David Meir-Levi...."<BR/><BR/>i'm aware of his work...<BR/><BR/>"Ya-ya I know, It’s the anti-thesis of your (and those like you) wholeconstructed view, but if you turned that oh-so giant intellect inward and actually tried to understand in a historic perspective you might well surprise yourself..."<BR/><BR/>blamin, i am the FURTHEST thing from any sort of "intellectual", <BR/>pseudo-, giant, or otherwise...<BR/><BR/>i am in fact, a simple man who lives to serve my nation, my God, and his people....<BR/><BR/>i would categorize myself as having a low to moderate level of intelligence...<BR/><BR/>what i'm saying is, why not consider freeing oneself, from the tiresome burden of intellectual conformity to failed political ideologies (and they're ALL failed, at this point, trust me), take the issues one at a time, and THINK and DISCUSS them out, rather than seeking solutions from deeply flawed, obscenely compensated eggheads who have no loyalty to anything but their own bottom lines?<BR/><BR/>It's important. Everyone has a point to make, everyone is entrusted to some level of wisdom that is received, not learned...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-39169798883621176842009-01-13T01:04:00.000-06:002009-01-13T01:04:00.000-06:00Blamin,Long time, no read. It's good to have you ...Blamin,<BR/><BR/>Long time, no read. It's good to have you back. Always appreciate your input and hope to see more.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-17382157903395049772009-01-12T22:45:00.000-06:002009-01-12T22:45:00.000-06:00Tsk, tsk, HashI’ve noticed a certain, bully-ness(?...Tsk, tsk, Hash<BR/><BR/>I’ve noticed a certain, bully-ness(?) on your part. You vainly attempt to over-intellectualize every subject you debate.<BR/><BR/>Here’s a little clue. When all’s said and done, most of today’s (and yesterdays!) hotly debated topics, in-spite of all the suggested nuances, can be summed up very well (and dealt with) with a hard and fast, tried and true, conservative principal.<BR/><BR/>The fact that yourself, or any other detractors try to spin the debate into endless circular arguments, or attempt to misdirect with immaterial nuances matters not! <BR/><BR/>For a concise (as you can get) and accurate argument I direct you to “<B>Big Lies :</B> Demolishing The Myths of the Propaganda War Against Israel” by David Meir-Levi.<BR/><BR/>Ya-ya I know, It’s the anti-thesis of your (and those like you) whole<I>constructed</I> view, but if you turned that oh-so giant intellect inward and actually tried to understand in a historic perspective you might well surprise yourself.<BR/><BR/>Then again, maybe not.blaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12384502967340506264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-71819510784289531642009-01-12T15:11:00.000-06:002009-01-12T15:11:00.000-06:00What is sad is your constant framing of this issue...What is sad is your constant framing of this issue in terms not related to reality. What is sad is your constant insistance that this discussion move in a direction of YOUR choosing as if this blog exists as a platform for YOUR goofy perspectives. What is sad is how YOU have brought this dialogue to an end by your continued re-statement of irrelevant tangents. You are welcome to indulge your own isolationist fantasies. I just don't understand why they don't also apply to visiting here. It's tiresome dealing with your skewed worldview, as I'm sure it's equally troubling for you to come here and argue against logic and reason. <BR/><BR/>I would encourage you to find a dictionary so as to familiarize yourself with the definitions of words such as "hypocrisy" and now "treason". It is NOT treason to support a nation under constant assault by pure evil, particularly an ally. Nor is it necessary to do so to the exclusion of our own, nor can you prove that that is happening, because it isn't.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-18917615146143540522009-01-12T14:04:00.000-06:002009-01-12T14:04:00.000-06:00fine, marshall, you've resorted to ad hominems and...fine, marshall, you've resorted to ad hominems and command posturing, so you've elected to bring the constructive part of this dialogue to an end<BR/><BR/>i'm certainly glad your philo-semitism at least permits you to show compassion to a tiny percentage of the world's population, my point remains that you are welcome to indulge your own philanthropic tendencies to support it, rather than picking the pockets of working americans<BR/><BR/>and, make no mistake, to extend privilege to right-wing jews alone, to the exclusion of your own stated nation's populace, IS treason, whether you'll be called upon to account for it in your lifetime on earth, or if it will come on the other side, is anyone's guess, and very much open to interpretation<BR/><BR/>sad, very sadAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-18868179659144277112009-01-12T03:45:00.000-06:002009-01-12T03:45:00.000-06:00Hash,"but, i'm not trying to "effect change","Good...Hash,<BR/><BR/><I>"but, i'm not trying to "effect change","</I><BR/><BR/>Good. Your ideas of a better direction are suspect. I wouldn't describe anyone as emotionally overwrought for either commenting on a current event, OR for responding to goofy perspectives like yours. Try to stay with the program.<BR/><BR/><I>"are we permitted to curse endlessly around here?"</I><BR/><BR/>No. But I am. However, to refer to those who strap explosives on their own kids as "assholes" is rather appropriate and quite restrained.<BR/><BR/><I>"or, you could hold the same respect for your commenters, you claim to demand for yourself....the choice is yours"</I><BR/><BR/>If you've been reading all of my posts and the comments thereafter (nothing I expect anyone to do, of course, but since you're gettin' cocky...), you'd know my concern for my visitors and the rules I've placed is for how they treat each other, inviting their invective to be aimed at me only. But keep THIS in mind, Sally: The day YOU dictate to ME how to comment is the day you get your own blog. If you see anything I type as an invitation to be as graphic as you'd like, go for it. I'll be happy to delete with extreme prejudice.<BR/><BR/><I>"what an obscene, perverted sentiment"</I><BR/><BR/>Only to those who wish to make silly accusations like you did following this quotation. Those who aren't looking to make points with false allegations will understand the point I was making was not a gleefull acceptance of child deaths at all. Nice try Skippy, but what you would have inferred had your head not been planted so far up your hindquarters is that I don't distinguish between nationalities when it comes to kids. Kids will die by Pallie hands no matter what Israel does and they will be kids from both sides.<BR/><BR/><I>"quite arguable"</I><BR/><BR/>Are you going to try to suggest that the Holocaust was somehow a result of Jewish attacks on a peaceful Nazi party? You really DO hate Jews, don't you? <BR/><BR/><I>"please stop with the fake outrage, again, you continue to lose whatever points you may have scored, when you go unhinged, and your arguments unravel"</I><BR/><BR/>Outrage? Unhinged? Over <I>your</I> idiocy? It's sarcasm and mockery. Appropriate for so many of your goofy attempts at intelligent argument. And as far as MY arguments, I could be wetting myself and foaming at the mouth and the premise of my argument would still be sound. YOU haven't successfully countered it yet.<BR/><BR/><I>"a certain amount of this would be understandable if you were jewish, but you are not,"</I><BR/><BR/>One only needs to open one's eyes to see my point has merit. One's ancestry is irrelevant.<BR/><BR/><I>"every jew i know..."</I><BR/><BR/>...amounts to how many? A quorum? A majority? Let's assume you know absolutely every Jew in the world personally. Let's assume they all are as stupid as you. What does the operation, the manner in which it has been conducted, or the likelihood of it's success, have to do with the point of this post?<BR/><BR/><I>"and, of COURSE, i'm playing the neocon card, because american neocons, israeli neocons, the coordinated neocon media, and those who support the neocon agenda! they are fully and totally responsible for this!"</I><BR/><BR/>That tin-foil hat must really be tight.<BR/><BR/><I>"marshall, my point is, the situation is quite dire enough, without you feeling compelled to embellish, or over-dramatize for effect"</I><BR/><BR/>I've embellished nothing. That would be you tossing in irrelevant points.<BR/><BR/><I>" answer the question, please "</I><BR/><BR/>Which one, the one you first asked, or having answered it well, the one you're now asking? Don't bother---the answer is pretty much the same. The lion's share of Israel's military actions have been defensive.<BR/><BR/><I>"morever, were america's relations with the middle east nations MORE peaceful, prior to israel's existence, or, LESS peaceful?"</I><BR/><BR/>We did not have the presence or influence then as now. However, our British allies dealth with violence in the region. And that was BEFORE Israeli statehood.<BR/><BR/><I>"who has spent, over the course of the last six decades, more time, killing, maiming, torturing, and spying on its "friends", than israel has?"</I><BR/><BR/>Islam, with the possible exception of spying on its friends, which, I believe, everyone does to some extent.<BR/><BR/><I>"israel has MUCH to atone for..."</I><BR/><BR/>Who doesn't?<BR/><BR/><I>"absolutely, for, with "allies" like israel, who needs enemies?<BR/><BR/>besides, they no longer offer anything, of strategic importance"</I><BR/><BR/>That's your opinion. Not a good one, either.<BR/><BR/><I>"i'm not positive that you do, marshall, and i'm also not convinced that, in your mind, no amount of aid is too much for israel"</I><BR/><BR/>Oh gee. How will I sleep tonight? Once again, try to stay on topic. We're not discussing the appropriate limits of foreign aid.<BR/><BR/><I>"foreign aid is actually an impediment to peace,"</I><BR/><BR/>This is just stupid.<BR/><BR/><I>"read: "it seems as though there is absolutely no..."</I><BR/><BR/>No. It should be read <I>We're not discussing the appropriate limits of foreign aid.</I> You wanna set the topic, get your own blog. It's irrelevant to the discussion.<BR/><BR/><I>"why do american neocons despise the un so?"</I><BR/><BR/>You mean the organization that conspired with Hussein during the Oil for Food scandal? The one that consistently puts terrorist supporting states on their Human Rights committees? The one that has no trouble existing on our soil while consistently working against our interests? The one that passes countless resolutions but never takes action with any meaning? THAT UN?<BR/><BR/><I>" no other "one world order", internationalist framework seems to inflame them at all...in fact, neocons embrace the others!"</I><BR/><BR/>Your tin-foil hat has a propeller on the top, doesn't it?<BR/><BR/><I>"you're blaming CARTER now, for your administration's two decades of a culture of utter corruption, LOL??"</I><BR/><BR/>You were spinning that prop as you typed this, weren't you? "Culture of corruption". That's funny.<BR/><BR/><I>"in twenty years' time, streets will be named for jimmy carter!"</I><BR/><BR/>In Gaza, maybe. But you've just proved you suffer from clinical idiocy. It's nice they let you use the computers at the home. Your comments are without a doubt getting wackier and wackier as this "discussion" (not that it still is one) goes on. If you wish to address the actual point of my post, feel free. I'm bored with your attempts to steer the discussion to your anti-Israeli direction. So if you can't stay on point, don't bother. I still encourage you to start your own blog where you can rant your babble all you like.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-71020070764467085702009-01-12T01:35:00.000-06:002009-01-12T01:35:00.000-06:00"It's what you fail or refuse to understand and wh..."It's what you fail or refuse to understand and why your rantings are meaningless in affecting any change..."<BR/><BR/>but, i'm not trying to "effect change", LOL! wrong lefty for that one...i am not personally involved with anyone else's struggle, and certainly not emotionally overwrought over it, i've already mentioned, nothing will change for the better, in the absence of decisive action<BR/><BR/>we don't have decisive leadership anymore, marshall<BR/><BR/>"Children will die no matter what; those who are made by their asshole parents..."<BR/><BR/>are we permitted to curse endlessly around here? because, i assumed i was under imperative to spew under "G" rated conventions, so as not to ruffle feathers...if expectations have changed, i'll be happy to oblige<BR/><BR/>or, you could hold the same respect for your commenters, you claim to demand for yourself....the choice is yours<BR/><BR/>"Children will die no matter what..."<BR/><BR/>what an obscene, perverted sentiment...for someone who pontificates against abortion rights so vociferously to do such an abrupt, morally inconsistent about-face, proves my adage that "they love the fetus, only to drop the baby on his head..."<BR/><BR/>"The Jews did not attack the Nazis or seek their total destruction before the Nazis began their Final Solution..."<BR/><BR/>quite arguable, but i'll let you slide on that, knowing that history is poorly and selectively taught in this country, nowadays<BR/><BR/>"oh really? Life in Israel is different than here? No foolin'. How could I have missed that? Fool...."<BR/><BR/>please stop with the fake outrage, again, you continue to lose whatever points you may have scored, when you go unhinged, and your arguments unravel<BR/><BR/>a certain amount of this would be understandable if you were jewish, but you are not, and your fevered responses only confirm that it is TOTALLY part of a dying political agenda you seem intent on resurrecting...every jew i know may disagree with my evaluation of motive, but concurs wholeheartedly that the entire operation has been a veritable disaster, tactically unsound, and leaves israel with no way out, no ability to change course, no feasible exit strategy, and unable to accomplish its alleged original objectives<BR/><BR/>which, of course, sounds frightening similar to most americans, particularly those of us who remember the downing street memo, pnac, and and netanyahu's key role in it <BR/><BR/>"You've exposed nothing but your lack of understanding, and your willingness to play the "neocon card"."<BR/><BR/>well, of course, i understand, you understand, we ALL understand<BR/><BR/>and, of COURSE, i'm playing the neocon card, because american neocons, israeli neocons, the coordinated neocon media, and those who support the neocon agenda! they are fully and totally responsible for this!<BR/><BR/>who else do we hold responsible for our own nation's failed foreign policy?? who's the scapegoat du jour? is it carter? perhaps the dailykos? soros? eisenhower? roosevelt?<BR/><BR/>"Which of those you've named sees death as a goal? Threats perhaps, but not on the same order as people who live to die..."<BR/><BR/>marshall, my point is, the situation is quite dire enough, without you feeling compelled to embellish, or over-dramatize for effect<BR/><BR/>"Hello? Anybody home? Those against whom Israel defends herself. They kill their own in their quest to annihilate the Jews. They kill those who dare counter Mohammed's teachings. They mutilate their own women, and they believe in death for tons of infractions as defined by their made-up religion. Have Jews made a habit of hacking the head off a bound captive?"<BR/><BR/>answer the question, please<BR/><BR/>what nation has brought more violence, more war, spent more money to do so, more consistently, than israel has?<BR/><BR/>morever, were america's relations with the middle east nations MORE peaceful, prior to israel's existence, or, LESS peaceful?<BR/><BR/>who has spent, over the course of the last six decades, more time, killing, maiming, torturing, and spying on its "friends", than israel has?<BR/><BR/>israel has MUCH to atone for...<BR/><BR/>"And here's where it comes to a head. Money is more important to you than helping an ally...."<BR/><BR/>absolutely, for, with "allies" like israel, who needs enemies?<BR/><BR/>besides, they no longer offer anything, of strategic importance<BR/><BR/>"I'm fully aware of the massive amounts of aid sent there and elsewhere...."<BR/><BR/>i'm not positive that you do, marshall, and i'm also not convinced that, in your mind, no amount of aid is too much for israel<BR/><BR/>"I'm aware Jimma Carter guaranteed aid in perpetuity..."<BR/><BR/>you're blaming CARTER now, for your administration's two decades of a culture of utter corruption, LOL??<BR/><BR/>let me put forth another prediction, marshall, for your benefit<BR/><BR/>in twenty years' time, streets will be named for jimmy carter!<BR/><BR/>"And I'm aware of how those funds could be wasted, er, spent here..."<BR/><BR/>sure, marsh, wouldn't want to spend money feeding the filthy goyim, when we can send it all to the jews, LOL!<BR/><BR/>listen to yourself, marshall, listen to the contempt you have for the people in your own homeland, yet such reverence for a few <BR/><BR/>"However, foreign aid is one way to demonstrate the character of our country as well as to secure other benefits..."<BR/><BR/>well, too bad, the bills are coming due<BR/><BR/>i'd expect major realignments to the "character" of such "arrangements" in the future, LOL!<BR/><BR/>"But cutting foreign aid is as much a pipe dream and MidEast peace..."<BR/><BR/>not really, when it is clearly understood that foreign aid is actually an impediment to peace, solid nations, and strong foreign policy, particularly when "mideast peace" is the real "pipe dream", and the peace itself, is a lie<BR/><BR/>"We can debate the justification for the aid we sent all over the place some other time. It's not pertinent to this discussion..."<BR/><BR/>read: "it seems as though there is absolutely no earthly reason for the us to subsidize the protectorate of israel, this oddity, in the midst of economic collapse at home, has never been so stringently examined and questioned by so many, and, in the absence of any plausible explanation for it, i have nothing to say..."<BR/><BR/>why call it as you would have it, marshall, when you can simply call it as it is?? <BR/><BR/>"It's no secret that much of the world, as evidenced by their reps in the useless UN believe as you do...."<BR/><BR/>why do american neocons despise the un so? it's possible to understand israelis feeling that way, since the un actually calls them out on their crimes...but why does one small, separate offshoot from conservatism, whose purveyors indeed mostly sprung forth from left-wing radicalism in earlier times....why would THEY continually obsess over the un's existence, particularly when the un's relationship to the un is essentially passive acceptance?<BR/><BR/>no other "one world order", internationalist framework seems to inflame them at all...in fact, neocons embrace the others!<BR/><BR/>well, maybe someone will connect the dots, especially if a "fool" like myself is capable of doing so, in the presence of such statesmen and intellectual giants, LOL!<BR/><BR/>"52% voted for Barry O, so numbers don't mean smarts or righteousness..."<BR/><BR/>ah, but millions of neocons, paleoconservatives, and others associated with conservatism and/or the republican party, chose not to vote for mccain, either<BR/><BR/>so, it would seem that, either such folks were willing to passively watch barky and his agenda, if one was capable of figuring it out, prevail, <BR/>or they switched their party affiliation and jumped on barkster's bandwagon<BR/><BR/>that's a fundamental failure on the part of conservatism, not the republicans or even barky, after all, i am, as we all know, to the left of chairman mao, and I supported mccain/palin wholeheartedly<BR/><BR/>well, i despise the new left, so its my interest, not my detriment, for you people to pull yourselves up by your bootstraps and get your acts together, you'll find we meet each other's immediate needs quite well, no need for rancor<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/> Big freakin' deal. 52% voted for Barry O, so numbers don't mean smarts or righteousness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-35694640768928643242009-01-12T00:21:00.000-06:002009-01-12T00:21:00.000-06:00"Ah geez...I was thinking about "sanctuary churche..."Ah geez...I was thinking about "sanctuary churches" and the "Catholic Worker Movement" when I wrote that..."<BR/><BR/>nah, i've calmed down about that, even though i'm still dedicated to opposition to illegal immigration, and immigration....i feel as though, it's logical and the right thing for the church to reach out to themAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-13041743545384298422009-01-12T00:06:00.000-06:002009-01-12T00:06:00.000-06:00Hash,""pax america" is more failed neocon philosop...Hash,<BR/><BR/><I>""pax america" is more failed neocon philosophy, born of fantasy, impossible to achieve, our buzzwords should be "benign neglect""</I><BR/><BR/>What the hell are you talking about and how does it relate to the quote you highlighted? This is no "neocon" interpretation of the situation. It's based on the words of those who were once a part of it and have since broken away. They are examples of the very internal awakening to which I refer. This dynamic exists without any external interference whatsoever, be it "neocon" or "peace at any cost lib". It's what you fail or refuse to understand and why your rantings are meaningless in affecting any change.<BR/><BR/><I>""Here's the kicker: whether Israel acted or not is neither here nor there..."<BR/><BR/>moral relativism is unconscionable in the eyes of a dying child,"</I><BR/><BR/>Here is more evidence of your lack of understanding. Children will die no matter what; those who are made by their asshole parents to wear explosive vests, or those who die by their detonation. Either those randomly killed by those very deadly missiles to which you shamefully refer as "bottle rockets", or those killed by Israeli retaliation due to Hamas purposely operating from among the civilian population that allows them to do so. Focus on this, Hash. It is the truth that won't change no matter what Israel does. It's just a matter of who's children, and whether any dies is up to the Palestinians.<BR/><BR/><I>"was the suffering of jews in wwII europe self-inflicted, then?"</I><BR/><BR/>No. And you accuse ME of moral relativism? Get serious. What an idiotic question! The Jews did not attack the Nazis or seek their total destruction before the Nazis began their Final Solution. The only Nazi-like behavior comes from Islamists.<BR/><BR/>Oh really? Life in Israel is different than here? No foolin'. How could I have missed that? Fool. What would stop YOU from acting to protect the lives of YOUR family? It's really idiotic to claim that the Israeli government does nothing to end the suffering of their own people just because they've fyet ailed to achieve total peace. Try again.<BR/><BR/><I>"so cowed are they of expressing themselves, for fear of the neocon "antisemite" card (i've exposed this tactic, earlier)"</I><BR/><BR/>You've exposed nothing but your lack of understanding, and your willingness to play the "neocon card".<BR/><BR/><I>" "No. I've equated YOUR criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism..."<BR/><BR/>so far, this is the sum total of your rebuttal to me, as i explained earlier, which neither disproves none of the points i've made, nor proves yours"</I><BR/><BR/>Now you're lying again. My rebuttal has been to explain the true nature of the problem, the source of it, and I've provided support for it as well. You, on the other hand, have cluttered this comments section with irrelevant information that has nothing to do with the reason for the trouble in the Middle East. Offering examples of Israeli imperfection proves only the Israel is imperfect, whereas my constant reminder of the underlying attitudes that rule Palestinian behavior toward Jews (indeed the same underlying attitude which colors Islam's worldview) remain the central issue. If those attitudes don't change, nothing changes. I haven't "picked" a side as much as been compelled by the realities there to align my compassions with the real victims. What kind of asshole aligns himself with a people for whom it is believed glory is attained by wiping out another people? Until other nations, like Russia, Venezuela, etc behave in this manner, they cannot be considered an "equivalent" threat. Which of those you've named sees death as a goal? Threats perhaps, but not on the same order as people who live to die.<BR/><BR/><I>""israel is, absolutely, the most violent country in the world"<BR/><BR/>"Bullshit."<BR/><BR/>name one that is worse...."</I><BR/><BR/>Hello? Anybody home? Those against whom Israel defends herself. They kill their own in their quest to annihilate the Jews. They kill those who dare counter Mohammed's teachings. They mutilate their own women, and they believe in death for tons of infractions as defined by their made-up religion. Have Jews made a habit of hacking the head off a bound captive?<BR/><BR/><I>"i want ALL financial aid to ALL other nations ended,"</I><BR/><BR/>And here's where it comes to a head. Money is more important to you than helping an ally. I'm fully aware of the massive amounts of aid sent there and elsewhere. I'm aware Jimma Carter guaranteed aid in perpetuity. And I'm aware of how those funds could be wasted, er, spent here. But cutting foreign aid is as much a pipe dream and MidEast peace. However, foreign aid is one way to demonstrate the character of our country as well as to secure other benefits. We can debate the justification for the aid we sent all over the place some other time. It's not pertinent to this discussion.<BR/><BR/><I>"events unfolding in gaza <BR/>and the overwhelming reaction of the world, as well as a cumulative awakening among americans, support my positions,"</I><BR/><BR/>It's no secret that much of the world, as evidenced by their reps in the useless UN believe as you do. Big freakin' deal. 52% voted for Barry O, so numbers don't mean smarts or righteousness.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-71121428385436313182009-01-11T22:01:00.000-06:002009-01-11T22:01:00.000-06:00"this is true, they certainly areto a point where,..."this is true, they certainly are<BR/><BR/>to a point where, sometimes, i wish they wouldn't! (i'm referring to my continued discomfort with "sanctuary churches"...)"<BR/><BR/>Ah geez...I was thinking about "sanctuary churches" and the "Catholic Worker Movement" when I wrote that.Martyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02908921670853665703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-58353098174220927392009-01-11T20:25:00.000-06:002009-01-11T20:25:00.000-06:00"This isn't a dig a the Catholic Church at all; it..."This isn't a dig a the Catholic Church at all; it is, rather, to note that if a particular church does not give us space in which to breathe the Spirit, does not give us spiritual nourishment, while it may for others, it might just be this church is not the place for one to worship. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with it; it just may not "fit" us where we are, so we can give proper praise and worship to God. This is why I am a fan of many denominations - the more the better - to offer as wide a variety of options for prayer, praise, worship, and service as possible. It is a recognition, not of the brokenness of humanity, but of the abundance of diversity of the ways we human beings encounter God...."<BR/><BR/>i do, too....especially in north america, where we emphasize choices and freedom, over tradition<BR/><BR/>i remember, in quebec, for example, catholicism was the only game in town, very devout, very religious...but there were many problems and injustices, unresolved tensions under the surface....then the "quiet revolution" went down, and so many fell away from the church, but there was no real, culturally compatible alternative<BR/><BR/>so, they more or less left God, when they left the church, in staggering numbers...it's not unusual to see montrealers spitting on the parish steps, so filled with rage and resentment some are...but you see the flip side, the lack of connectivity to the Source, all of the problems that manifest themselves wherever spiritual breakdown is present...<BR/><BR/>"What this has to to with Middle East Peace I don't know. Just thought I'd toss that out there, though...."<BR/><BR/>it actually does, though, because, as discouraged as we get with seemingly impossible problems and irreconciliable differences, there is hope, and there is Hope<BR/><BR/>maybe God will be The Perfect Laborer, and use us as vessels...<BR/><BR/>i'm certainly praying about it, i'll admit, i'm at the end of my rope!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-27522448117750400432009-01-11T20:14:00.000-06:002009-01-11T20:14:00.000-06:00"The Catholic church especially gives one the oppo..."The Catholic church especially gives one the opportunity to do that inside and outside the church. They are a rockbed of social ministry..."<BR/><BR/>this is true, they certainly are<BR/><BR/>to a point where, sometimes, i wish they wouldn't! (i'm referring to my continued discomfort with "sanctuary churches"...)<BR/><BR/>"I for one am glad the Methodists kept that aspect when they broke away...."<BR/><BR/>sure do, here they have an award-wining, huge daycare center and learning center that truly serves all of our community...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-8589602047220589272009-01-11T20:09:00.000-06:002009-01-11T20:09:00.000-06:00"(spong was my bishop)."OH! you poor bastard. Good..."(spong was my bishop)."<BR/><BR/>OH! you poor bastard. Good for you for high-tailing it. He's a heretic par excellance and no Christian. I'd have been right behind you, if not way in front of you."<BR/><BR/>well, it was all very unusual<BR/><BR/>i'm reluctant to call anyone's christianity into question, although there's definitely enough there to assume that he's lost his connection with The One Above, or at least gotten into complex intellectual questions that called him to a crisis of faith, maybe even a crisis of conscience.."<BR/><BR/>"Which I left for doctrinal reasons. Parts of it I miss..."<BR/><BR/>well, if you miss the music, the incense, the candles, the stained glass, etc., never feel as though you can't stop by and visit! all of my protestant/unchurched friends and relatives do<BR/><BR/>"do not feel as though i'm being "fed", spiritually"<BR/><BR/>"That may be because it's not something that should be your focus. I've heard this complaint from others regarding other churches and don't understand it at all. I go to church to worship. Seems to me that's the point of going. Not to get, but to give. To give praise, honor and glory to God. Try thinking of it that way and see if you don't feel "full"."<BR/><BR/>you know, that's a very astute, profound, and kind observation for you to make, i was thinking that even as i wrote it!<BR/><BR/>as my very devout filipino neighbor likes to tell me, "stop thinking! stop worrying! just BE, with Him!"<BR/><BR/>"You shouldn't need a church for that. Prayer will maintain that closeness far better, along with diving into Scripture..."<BR/><BR/>that's true, don't worry about it, i was just momentarily wallowing in foolish doubt, i'll probably never leave my parishAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-59771887310114260912009-01-11T19:58:00.000-06:002009-01-11T19:58:00.000-06:00"Now you're making things up. I'm defending the po..."Now you're making things up. I'm defending the position that peace will only come with an internal change in the beliefs of Islam as they pertain to the total destruction of the Jewish people and non-Muslims, and how this contemptable belief is the source of the suffering of the Palestinian people as well. What's indefensible is your denial of this very basic fact...."<BR/><BR/>"pax america" is more failed neocon philosophy, born of fantasy, impossible to achieve, our buzzwords should be "benign neglect"<BR/><BR/>"Here's the kicker: whether Israel acted or not is neither here nor there..."<BR/><BR/>moral relativism is unconscionable in the eyes of a dying child, and my view of the situation is guided by the fact that israel was justified in taking action, unjustified in the fact that they chose to effect a bloodbath<BR/><BR/>"The suffering of the Palestinian people is self-inflicted..."<BR/><BR/>was the suffering of jews in wwII europe self-inflicted, then?<BR/><BR/>"I do NOT believe Israel is determined to keep their people trapped. Why do you think it is the government's duty to relocate these people? Would you sit on your ass waiting for someone else to protect your family from falling rockets? Do you think the Israeli government is preventing their departure from these areas? Right..."<BR/><BR/>marshall, life for families in israel is VERY different from the life we enjoy here....you do not wake up one morning and decide, "oh, cicero's getting bad, let's go move to skokie"...<BR/><BR/>average families live very much on the margins there, the cost of living is unreal, salaries are low, almost no one saves, in fact it is common for the family bank account to go into overdraft, intentionally, every month, and no one thinks twice of it?<BR/><BR/>would you want to relocate your family to a distant caravilla, because no one (gasp!) wants a home with those pesky kassams raining down periodically?<BR/><BR/>has it ever occurred to you that there is really nowhere to go? And, like the religious settlers, is it correct that they should be rendered homeless because they are a part of government-based social engineering they couldn't imagine would be done to them?<BR/><BR/>"Could we be any more judgemental?"<BR/><BR/>yes, because passing judgment is not always inappropriate, and i believe i have a valid point regarding liberal cowardice on the issue of israel, so cowed are they of expressing themselves, for fear of the neocon "antisemite" card (i've exposed this tactic, earlier)<BR/><BR/>it's pointless to engage in noisy demonstrations that yield little than hot air, or boycotts in a globalized economy, we have a case to make and we need start taking it to american neocons and their apologists, who have done more to ferment the middle east catastrophe than the stern gang and the irgun, put together<BR/><BR/>we need not be ashamed to know the truth, we need not be embarrassed by our passion, we simply need to be willing to teach, argue, persuade, convince, to break the cycle of failure<BR/><BR/>"No. I've equated YOUR criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism..."<BR/><BR/>so far, this is the sum total of your rebuttal to me, as i explained earlier, which neither disproves none of the points i've made, nor proves yours<BR/><BR/>it's similar to the race card being played during barky's campaign, it's invalid, because you've picked a side, like a foosball match, but declaring one side "God" and the other satan will do nothing to resolve these disagreements, or even promote understanding of the situation<BR/><BR/>the left is one hundred percent correct when they challenge, if england, france, germany,japan, etc. are also "allies", why don't american neocons give them the same sort of absolutist, blanket immunity as israel is?<BR/><BR/>"If you're not willing to make yourself aware of all the facts, you're not worth my time debating..."<BR/><BR/>dude, i'm AWARE of it, aware of the very real threat of islamic terrorism, i kinda sorta get that...*eyeroll*<BR/><BR/>i'm also saying neocons have built an industry out of it, and if you can't see the equivalent threat of other rogue nations like israel, venezuela, east timor, the congo, russia, etc., well, shame on me<BR/><BR/>and if you CAN see it, and choose simply to disregard their equivalent threats, well, shame on you <BR/><BR/>"israel is, absolutely, the most violent country in the world"<BR/><BR/>"Bullshit."<BR/><BR/>name one that is worse....<BR/><BR/>"I support them in their struggle against those who wish to erase any trace of them from the planet. This is the position I've taken and the extent to which I've expressed any support. So please stop lying about that, too...."<BR/><BR/>it's NOT a lie, marshall! i've been around here enough to see several israel-related problems come up....you support them when they are right, you support them when they are wrong, and when they are wrong, you simply claim they are right, and you think that puts you in the clear, but nowhere is there a conscious, critical examination of the facts on the ground, and basing your opinion on right vs. wrong, as opposed to we vs. they<BR/><BR/>you've even compared it to a personal friendship! that's not objective from a political standpoint, and, even worse, it's damn irresponsible when it comes to our nation's security, and the ever-changing world we live in!<BR/><BR/>"As to money spent, are you freakin' kidding me? Have you forgotten the recent tsunami that hit Idonesia? Have you forgotten how much money has been squandered by Sadam Hussein in the oil for food scandal? Have you forgotten the net worth of Anwar Sadat upon his death? Can you name the business in which he made his money? He pocketed aid from countries like ours, is how. We have always as a nation sought to improve relations with Middle Eastern nations and if you'd read more than lib sources you'd know that...."<BR/><BR/>OMG....have you no idea how MUCH money israel siphons out of our economy and our paychecks, each year??<BR/><BR/>even in a tsunami, there is at least an END to the water...<BR/><BR/>i want ALL financial aid to ALL other nations ended, if you wish to contribute to jewish charities, i heartily endorse it....but i want the public swindle ended, the amounts are involved are unconscionable, particularly when the cost of endless regional conflicts and we have our own backyard to tend to...our OWN backyard! that must be first!<BR/><BR/>all right, enough israel for one night, i honestly believe the most recent events unfolding in gaza <BR/>and the overwhelming reaction of the world, as well as a cumulative awakening among americans, support my positions, so we'll have to wait and see<BR/><BR/>remember, there can be no peace without one of the two options i've described, and most will find both repugnant, so we'd all better settle in for a long ride<BR/><BR/>thank youAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-34617854626700313382009-01-11T11:47:00.000-06:002009-01-11T11:47:00.000-06:00On Marshall and Marty's latest points I would agre...On Marshall and Marty's latest points I would agree up to a certain point (and many thanks, Marty, for the plug for my denomination!). Obviously, the point of the Church is to worship God. Yet, if our worship is hollow ritual (see the complaints in the Hebrew prophets for details) without any sense of life, it isn't worship at all, is it? This isn't a dig a the Catholic Church at all; it is, rather, to note that if a particular church does not give us space in which to breathe the Spirit, does not give us spiritual nourishment, while it may for others, it might just be this church is not the place for one to worship. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with it; it just may not "fit" us where we are, so we can give proper praise and worship to God. This is why I am a fan of many denominations - the more the better - to offer as wide a variety of options for prayer, praise, worship, and service as possible. It is a recognition, not of the brokenness of humanity, but of the abundance of diversity of the ways we human beings encounter God.<BR/><BR/>What this has to to with Middle East Peace I don't know. Just thought I'd toss that out there, though.Geoffrey Kruse-Saffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242660591954094499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-61847204506730275602009-01-11T09:29:00.000-06:002009-01-11T09:29:00.000-06:00"That may be because it's not something that shoul..."That may be because it's not something that should be your focus. I've heard this complaint from others regarding other churches and don't understand it at all. I go to church to worship. Seems to me that's the point of going. Not to get, but to give. To give praise, honor and glory to God. Try thinking of it that way and see if you don't feel "full"."<BR/><BR/>Boy on this point Marshall you and I totally agree! And not only to give praise honor and glory but also to serve. The Catholic church especially gives one the opportunity to do that inside and outside the church. They are a rockbed of social ministry. I for one am glad the Methodists kept that aspect when they broke away.Martyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02908921670853665703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-34449034551992382012009-01-11T00:17:00.000-06:002009-01-11T00:17:00.000-06:00Hash,"(spong was my bishop)." OH! you poor bastard...Hash,<BR/><BR/><I>"(spong was my bishop)."</I> <BR/><BR/>OH! you poor bastard. Good for you for high-tailing it. He's a heretic par excellance and no Christian. I'd have been right behind you, if not way in front of you.<BR/><BR/><I>"and converted to catholicism"</I> <BR/><BR/>Which I left for doctrinal reasons. Parts of it I miss.<BR/><BR/><I>"do not feel as though i'm being "fed", spiritually"</I><BR/><BR/>That may be because it's not something that should be your focus. I've heard this complaint from others regarding other churches and don't understand it at all. I go to church to worship. Seems to me that's the point of going. Not to get, but to give. To give praise, honor and glory to God. Try thinking of it that way and see if you don't feel "full".<BR/><BR/><I>"so, i'll remain rc, until such point that i find a new church home, where i can retain my closeness with God,"</I><BR/><BR/>You shouldn't need a church for that. Prayer will maintain that closeness far better, along with diving into Scripture.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-40086881541825647212009-01-11T00:01:00.000-06:002009-01-11T00:01:00.000-06:00Hash,"you haven't been able to address ONE single ...Hash,<BR/><BR/><I>"you haven't been able to address ONE single point i've made here..."</I><BR/><BR/>I've addressed every point having relevance to the topic of the post. YOU'VE sought to insert "points" that are meaningless, particularly with no explanation attached as to how they might have relevance. I'm sure I've made that clear.<BR/><BR/><I>"...and are simply falling back on right-wing talking points..."</I><BR/><BR/>Nonsense. But if it makes you feel better to believe so, fine.<BR/><BR/><I>"you continue to defend the indefensible'</I><BR/><BR/>Now you're making things up. I'm defending the position that peace will only come with an internal change in the beliefs of Islam as they pertain to the total destruction of the Jewish people and non-Muslims, and how this contemptable belief is the source of the suffering of the Palestinian people as well. What's indefensible is your denial of this very basic fact.<BR/><BR/>I had no expectations regarding the duration of the current Israeli action. But it did inspire the post as I considered the source of the trouble in Gaza. Here's the kicker: whether Israel acted or not is neither here nor there. The point remains. The suffering of the Palestinian people is self-inflicted. One cannot debate this point without blatant disregard of the facts. You should stop doing that and get with it.<BR/><BR/>You have no evidence that Israel intends to "decimate" the Palestinian people. Should they decide to do so, the decision would be based on the realization that the Palestinian people have no intention of forsaking the agenda of Israeli annihilation. Walls, roadblocks and checkpoints installed by Israel have all been in response to Palestinian terrorism. The cold light of day reveals these truths to be self-evident.<BR/><BR/><I>"you equate any criticism of israel with anti-semitism"</I><BR/><BR/>No. I've equated YOUR criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism. Your constant use of terms such as "indiscriminate bombing" by Israel, which is a lie, and "bottle rockets" to describe Kassam rockets and mortars, which is also deceptive to describe their power in such a way, and other purposely misleading words and phrases lends credence to the charge that you are anti-semetic. And you dare speak of propaganda and right-wing talking points.<BR/><BR/><I>"i had marveled at how the latte-sipping volvo-driving contingent..."</I><BR/><BR/>Could we be any more judgemental?<BR/><BR/><I>"and, then, i got it"</I><BR/><BR/>No. You didn't. No one else has given me cause to suspect anti-semetism but you.<BR/><BR/>Israel holds the moral high ground even now because they do NOT seek the total destruction of the falsely named Palestinian people. Between the two, it has always been Israel that has truly held out the honest hand of friendship, willing to sacrifice territory up the wazzoo, uprooting their own people even, to achieve peace.<BR/><BR/>I do NOT believe Israel is determined to keep their people trapped. Why do you think it is the government's duty to relocate these people? Would you sit on your ass waiting for someone else to protect your family from falling rockets? Do you think the Israeli government is preventing their departure from these areas? Right.<BR/><BR/><I>"now, it's impossible to defend Hamas, but its almost as difficult to defend Israel's cruelty towards civilians, because the fact is, they often respond to incidents with harsh brutality"</I><BR/><BR/>Nonsense. You're expecting Israel to just eat it because Pallie civilians are at risk, put their by their own will and the strategies of the leadership they freely elected. Perhaps you're unaware that Israel is so uncaring that they've dropped leaflets warning Pallie civilians to evacuate for their own safety as they seek to put more hurt on Hamas. If they were as uncaring as you like to believe, why haven't they flattened Gaza completely already? Lefty talking points anyone?<BR/><BR/><I>"israel consistently responds by with targeting civilians"</I><BR/><BR/>This is a total lie and only idiots believe it. Again you seek to employ such unmitigated crap such as "proportional" responses. It is plain that you have absolutely NO idea about which you speak. You keep on with nonsense and now pretend that world opinion should guide us in this easy to determine black and white situation. You insist on ignoring absolute fact about the nature of Islam and the fundamentalists that are behind the suffering in the Middle East as well as other parts of the world where they have a presence. I've invited you to visit Jihad Watch, MEMRI and other places that show plainly the nature of the enemy and you obviously haven't made move one in that direction. If you're not willing to make yourself aware of all the facts, you're not worth my time debating. <BR/><BR/><I>"israel is, absolutely, the most violent country in the world"</I><BR/><BR/>Bullshit.<BR/><BR/><I>"and, marshall, you support them unconditionally"</I><BR/><BR/>I support them in their struggle against those who wish to erase any trace of them from the planet. This is the position I've taken and the extent to which I've expressed any support. So please stop lying about that, too.<BR/><BR/>Considering the extent of the hatred against them, Israel has shown remarkable restraint. We both know they have the capability to render Gaza a parking lot. They could easily devastate a big chunk of the Arab world. They don't and it's likely they never will. And this is while so many who surround them wish their total destruction. YOU think about THAT!Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-26365215670668803332009-01-10T16:36:00.000-06:002009-01-10T16:36:00.000-06:00"So you're a Roman Catholic..."yes, i was episcopa..."So you're a Roman Catholic..."<BR/><BR/>yes, i was episcopal, but my church had become too politicized (spong was my bishop). and converted to catholicism, love the church, but it is a mixed bag for me, and do not feel as though i'm being "fed", spiritually...unfortunately most mainstream protestant congregations have gone foreign-language to survive, as the protestant minority is overwhelmingly secular<BR/><BR/>so, i'll remain rc, until such point that i find a new church home, where i can retain my closeness with God, while maintaining the highest possible level of integrity and growth, that i can manage<BR/><BR/>i believe, don't leave a church, until you have another one to join up withAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com