Monday, October 08, 2007
Lay Off Chris!!
Just a quick note to say what a bunch of incredible wackjobs are those idiots who are working toward the removal of Columbus Day from the list of federal holidays. Talk about crackpots. That anyone gives these morons the time of day baffles me. Some of the ridiculous comments I've heard today on Medved's show, as well as the general tone of their "message" that bores me to no end every year on this date, shows a complete lack of serious historical study. Actually it just shows how freakin' stupid they are. Jeez.
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42 comments:
it's an arcane holiday. time to put it in moth balls.
KEvron
I think you need a different adjective. Columbus Day is hardly "arcane".
How about ridiculous? Absurd? Would Repugnant do? Actually, "arcane" fits quite well here. Five hundred years ago, an Italian con-man who managed to finagle some money from the Spanish court convinced himself he had landed on the east coast of "India", when in fact all he and his crew managed to do was infect a group of indigenous people with smallpox and kill them off within a generation.
Yeah, I think I want a day off for that . . .
"I think you need a different adjective."
few realize that it's the celebration of a man who failed to discover that for which he set. it's got limited appeal, exclusive to bank tellers.
KEvron
oh, gk-s beat me to it....
KEvron
and, to be honest, i did mean to type "archaic", but crapped out "archane" instead. happy mistake, it turns out....
KEvron
Columbus traveled to the new world in hopes of finding the East Indies. His mission, as he saw it, was not only to find a shorter route to the East, but more importantly, to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens.
It is hardly any wonder that the God haters would object to a Columbus Day.
And it is typical revisionist history to suggest his arrival brought nothing but disease and annhilation to the natives here. If that were true, how do Native Americans still exist?
Welcome back, Art.
Uh, Mark, being a Christian, I ain't no God-hater. Please refrain from such a crass, ignorant generalization in the future.
I ain't no God-hater.>
Geoffrey, The Word says how can we say we love God if we don't love the brethren. You are very harsh on fellow Christians if they do not agree with you politically. You are not the only one, but it does seem to be a leftest trait to get angry, call names and imply that those not in agreement with them are of lesser intelligence.
Yes, it's a great day because it led to the greatest nation in the world... to date. yes, I know, we conquered the Indians and that puts some people's panties in a wad. But had the Europeans not conquered the Indians, they would have gladly done so to us. :)
Mom2 - I am no more harsh on those with whom I disagree than most people. That kind of strong belief indicates that my politics, like my religious belief, are deeply held, and a matter not of convenience but conviction.
As for "loving the brethren" - please do not condescend to tell me what love is and how it should be manifest. To be honest, Mom2, I am tired of your pompous attitude that, because you are older, your views should be accorded some kind of respect not due to others.
Nah, I don't think so.
This is why I have given up coming to sites frequented by fundamentalists. The kind of attack Mom2 does here - in which somehow I embody all those traits that are actually those of the lunatic right - is tiresome, and impossible to defend oneself against. I have had my say about ol' Chris Colon (his name in Spanish), and I think I will be going now, because those who see base, even evil intent behind the most banal comment are really no longer worth my time and energy. I personally wish you would all just damn me to hell, then please leave me alone.
The Native Americans got screwed. But so did just about every other group of people on the planet at some point.
However, the indigenous people weren't all happy loving folks either. Many were quite the opposite. It's unfair to say that Europeans just showed up and indiscriminately killed a poor peace loving people. Did bad things happen? Sure did. But so did a lot of other great and noble things.
Interestingly, South Americans, those whose ancestors were most directly affected by Columbus, are somewhat split on his legacy as well.
As far as remembering him, I ask why not? He obviously played a huge role in history and is worthy of study and remembrance. Was he perfect? No, but neither was he the evil force so many try to make him out to be.
Geoffrey, you just showed some more of the kind of behavior I was talking about. If you will go find any site where I have ever talked like you do, show it to me. You should remember your Dad's words to you. Remember, you said he once told you that you did not know everything and that is not an exact quote because I believe there was some profanity used in his language.
I do not swear or call names. If the shoe fits with my criticism of your behavior, wear it.
As for the feelings you portray toward our country, maybe you should ship out and see if you find a better one. I think not.
Cameron,
Good way to put it. I tried to do a piece on it last year and got lambasted by the European White haters of America, i.e. liberals. So my post here was somewhat sarcastic.
Blessings
Cameron is the only one to see both sides of this arcane fence. Good and bad came from CC touching down. As I'm sure Mom2 can attest, Cameron.. you almost sound like one of those European White haters of America..
As far as remembering him, I ask why?
The canon of American history is littered with the same type of guys. Can we ever start to spread the love a bit? I mean, that guy who invented peanut butter has had a far greater impact on my day to day life.
Besides.. talk about CC Day Observed. Who didnt work on Monday?
"...and impossible to defend oneself against."
The question one should be asking is - impossible to WHOM, Geoffrey? I would imagine mom2 represents only a small percentage of those you're trying to reach/convince/whatever, so why the need to "defend" yourself? You speak the truth as you see it, she speaks the truth as she sees it, and the rest of us speak the truth as we see it. Although I've had a few back and forths with mom2 myself, I guess the part that confounds me in terms of your interaction with her is the apparent level of frustration involved. Some eggs just ain't gonna crack, but that doesn't mean one has to ditch the party altogether. It's important to keep the obvious in mind here - this is a public forum, and everything you say is visible to MANY more people than just mom2. As a consequence, you're also essentially speaking to THEM when you respond to mom2. That means you might just be winning over folks you didn't even realize were listening, hence you've accomplished at least one of your goals, no? In the end, it just might not be mom2 you were meant to convince.
No need for frustration. Keep right on fightin' the good fight.
Peace.
"No need for frustration. Keep right on fightin' the good fight."
Right. Or the fight YOU'RE fightin'.
But jokes aside, it's also helpful to remember that no one is obliged to respond to commenters with whom one dislikes or finds no point in doing so. If one's convictions were truly strong, an occasional remark should not drive one away. It hasn't driven me away from Geoffrey's site, though I haven't been there lately. It shouldn't drive him from here. Feel free to ignore anyone who's comments offend. If you think someone's over the top offensive, contact me personally and I'll deal with it on your behalf if I feel such action is merited.
As to Chris, there's been a ton of negative stuff about him in recent years. I tend to take it all with grains of salt since in the same time frame, other notable figures from history have been drug through the mud. I have no problem presenting a figure warts and all, but it feels as if such negativity is done with a less than altruistic purpose, and more so to dump on the country and those connected to it. Just my opinion, but it's based on the one-way nature of the revelations. Case in point, the book "1491" is a great description of the "noble savages" that actually inhabited the Americas before Columbus. They weren't the saintly people of the garden as some like to paint them. Their future was not solely the fault of visitors from other countries and in many cases was totally self-inflicted.
But this is the wacky stuff to which I referred. It's so typical these days to look back and crap on someone by magnifying shortcomings. It's the opposite of the build up given by others, but there's an automatic nastiness involved when one focusses so hard on the negatives that some begin to believe what was even less true about the figure than was originally believed. Balance is lacking. The worst is the idea that Columbus was some sort of crook who sought to exploit and oppress the native peoples of the places he found, and that he was the beginning of unimaginable suffering. Nonsense. There's far too much "evil Chris" crap floating around out there and too many, particularly the enlightened left, are more than happy to swallow it whole. He's accused of far more than he should be. As Cameron suggested, Chris' mistake was a major event as it turned out, and for that, it should continue to be remembered.
"God haters would object to a Columbus Day."
hey, artie? would you mind nipping this stuff in the bud for me? thanks....
KEvron
"it does seem to be a leftest trait to get angry, call names and imply that those not in agreement with them are of lesser intelligence."
i can direct you to literally thousands of comments on the internets that would soundly contradict your statement.
KEvron
for those of you who are unaware, c. columbus did not establish democracy in the newe world. this bit about "his discovery (read: blunder) lead to the founding blah blah blah" is hogwash. if you're going to take that approach, then we can keep going back in history to terribler events which eventually lead to c's misadventure.
c meant to find passage to asia, and he failed. break out the party hats!
KEvron
"You speak the truth as you see it, she speaks the truth as she sees it, and the rest of us speak the truth as we see it."
what utter tripe! m2's comment was clearly an oblique insult, based not on conviction but personal distaste.
let's keep it real, eh?
KEvron
"we can keep going back in history"
in fact. c wouldn't have dared enter the open waters had it not been for the great advances in navigation made centuries before by the.... wait for it....muslim world!
omar khayyam had accurately determined the circumference (that implies "round", europeans!) of the earth five centuries before c got hisself lost.
allahu akbar.
KEvron
Accident or not, kevie, his discovery was notable for it's time and for what followed. If you don't want to celebrate the incident or the man, don't put up your Columbus Day tree.
"don't put up your Columbus Day tree"
exactly; a holiday that nobody actually celebrates....
...unless, of course, we're counting reactionary pretenses....
KEvron
"exactly; a holiday that nobody actually celebrates...."
Like Labor Day, Memorial Day, Veteran's Day...and how did you celebrate MLK Day? In fact, how many of us actually spend any holiday with our minds totally focussed on the meaning of the day? More often than not, each is merely just a day off. Thus, how and/or if a day is "celebrated" really doesn't enter into it anymore. But an official recognition of the event or figure memorialized by the day at least shows on some level a recognition of the significance of the event or figure. In this case, the discovery of the lands of the Americas was indeed significant and mistake or not, the event triggered a new era and area of exploration and expansion. Chris just happened to be the explorer who did it, so we honor his memory. Quite simple, really.
"m2's comment was clearly an oblique insult, based not on conviction but personal distaste."
I'm not talking about that particular comment, kevron. mom2's been offering her opinions for quite a while here at Art's place - as we ALL have - and she's most definitely speaking the truth as she sees it. Do I agree with her perspective? Absolutely not. But that doesn't mean she's not arguing what SHE believes is truth.
"event triggered a new era and area of exploration and expansion"
Kinda sounds like an argument for Al Gore Day.
les, I admire the fact that you do not get all bent out of shape over people disagreeing with you.
"Kinda sounds like an argument for Al Gore Day."
*GACK!*
The Goracle triggered a new era of fantasy and make-believe. But hey, Park, if ol' Al gives you that special tingling, go for it.
"les, I admire...you."
Yeah - I'm awesome.
The truth, as I see it.
"Like Labor Day"
uh, i'm a union electrical worker. we do, indeed, observe the meaning of that holiday.
"Memorial Day"
we'll never forget you, mark, and we'll always continue the tradition.
"Veteran's Day"
apparently, no one in your family has ever served. my own family has a long tradition of service, beginning with the war for independence.
"and how did you celebrate MLK Day?"
lol! how did you celebrate the day? and does bumping into a continent and mistaking it for another compare to offering one's life for profound change?
KEvron
"I'm not talking about that particular comment, kevron."
unfortunately, ita's that very comment that is the point of contention.
"But that doesn't mean she's not arguing what SHE believes is truth."
nor can we necessarilly assume the inverse.
btw, i'm all too well versed in papd....
KEvron
""But that doesn't mean she's not arguing what SHE believes is truth."
let's test that:
"You are very harsh on fellow Christians if they do not agree with you politically. You are not the only one, but it does seem to be a leftest trait to get angry, call names and imply that those not in agreement with them are of lesser intelligence."
and yet she seemed to miss mark's comment, which had initiated the sidebar (though she did have his words "god hater" in her own comment):
"It is hardly any wonder that the God haters would object to a Columbus Day."
now tell me more about how swell m2 is....
KEvron
kevron, get over yourself. I was quoting a previous quote to make a point.
"uh, i'm a union electrical worker. we do, indeed, observe the meaning of that holiday."
Yeah. Tell me another.
"we'll never forget you, mark, and we'll always continue the tradition."
Huh?
"apparently, no one in your family has ever served. my own family has a long tradition of service, beginning with the war for independence."
Naturally.
"lol! how did you celebrate the day?"
I don't. But that's the point. Having hot dogs and watching fireworks has little to do with the meaning of the July 4, just as Santa Claus and holly have little to do with Christmas. Taking advantage of the time off, partying in any number of ways, none of that has anything to do with honoring the point of the holiday. Exactly how do you observe the meaning of Labor Day, or any of the other holidays? If you want to make your argument on the premise that no one celebrates Columbus Day, you'd have to explain how you think a holiday should be remembered, why you think a minor holiday needs the big deal festivities of a Christmas or July 4th, or how Presidents Day or MLK Day gets more attention nationally or socially.
As to Chris' "blunder", we pay homage to many scientists and inventors who "blundered" into a discovery that had less impact than the creation of a new and great nation like ours. Many drugs are used for purposes for which they were not originally intended. Their curative properties for other ailments were often discovered accidentally. This has happened many times in various ways throughout history. But the significance of the discovery is not diminished by the fact that it's discovery was accidental. It's the discovery itself that is celebrated, remembered, honored. The same is true for Columbus. It's less for the man, what he did accidentally, than for the significance of the event.
And BTW, he certainly gave his life for his goals and they were worthy in what they promised to the economy at the time. It's different than marching for civil rights, but no less worthy of honor for the positive impact.
One more thing. According to Merriam-Webster:
arcane--: known or knowable only to the initiate : secret [arcane rites]; broadly : mysterious, obscure [arcane explanations]
How does "arcane" fit quite well here? Very few are unaware of the holiday or the man for whom it is named or the event for which he became famous.
"unfortunately, ita's that very comment that is the point of contention."
That has absolutely nothing to do with MY point, KEvron. Listen closely:
Does a rabbi believe his own teachings? Does a Christian buy into her church's preferred dogma? Does even the most militant of imams believe he's following the will of Allah? Does the deranged lunatic on the street corner with the cardboard sign portending the end of the world believe his own ramblings? Odds are the answer to all these questions is "yes", wouldn't you agree? If that is, indeed, the case, then are they not each arguing what they personally believe is the truth? This has nothing to do with the ACCURACY or even the MORALITY of their arguments. Heck, even the National Socialists were convinced of the accuracy of their own "truth". How'd that work out for them?
Truth and one's perception of truth are two completely different animals. We all have our own perception of truth, and many of us choose to fight to advance our own version of it. How we came to believe what we believe has absolutely no bearing on the fact that our own unique perspectives do, at the very least, EXIST. Furthermore, how we choose to manifest our beliefs also has no bearing on the fact that our own beliefs exist, correct?
Look, would I prefer it if we could all just sit down, hold hands, sing "Kumbuya", and magically work out our differences without slingin' insults? Sure. Who wouldn't? That, however, ain't happenin', and it never will. I could personally care less how one chooses to argue one's beliefs, which is why frustration seems pointless to me. THAT was essentially the point of my initial comment. There will never be a universal consensus, but hopefully there will always be a conversation, however futile it may appear to the casual observer. I, for one, can live with that.
"now tell me more about how swell m2 is..."
You wanna show me where I said that? No? Didn't think so.
One last thing...
The next time you decide to label something someone says as "tripe", you might want to make sure you fully understand what it is that person is saying first. You gotta know which battles are worth fightin', and I'm tellin' ya, friend - this ain't one of 'em. I'm not your enemy on this one, and if you'd go back and read my comments the way they were intended to be read, you might change your opinion of them. Give it a shot, see what happens.
Peace.
The previous is why Les is one of my favorite lefties.
I have been busy so haven't followed this thread, but I need to offer one clarification:
When I used the term, "God Haters" I was referring specifically to Kevron. He is most definitely a God hater, and has demonstrated that fact on many many ocassions.
Gepffrey is not, as far as I know, a God hater.
It's good to offer such clarification, Mark. Many of our opponents in these discussions will merely take a comment and use it against us in a manner the comment shouldn't have provoked. It's a common tactic.
Since Kevron doesn't read the Bible, he probably missed the references to a round earth found within.
Kevron says, as if this is the first anyone ever mentioned the earth might be round, "omar khayyam had accurately determined the circumference (that implies "round", europeans!) of the earth five centuries before c got hisself lost".
And many more centuries before Omar kayan, Isaiah the prophet of God (In whom Kevron doesn't believe) said, in Isaiah 40:22,
"22 He sits enthroned above the circle (implies round) of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in".
Kevron might not believe the Bible or in God, who created the Bible, but there is no dispute that the writings of the prophet Isaiah came centuries before Omar Kayan.
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