While I have been recouperating, I have been mostly just hitting the various blogs I usually visit and spewing Vicodin enhanced comments all over the place. Then I saw a good suggestion by Geoff, which was to post something upon which people can converse. I thought my thoughts on Israel would be a good topic. So here goes:
When I was a wee lad, I used to wonder about the troubles between Israel and the Palestinians. As a product of a Roman Catholic elementary school, as well as a product who enjoyed religion classes with all the OT stories, I would naturally feel inclined to side with Israel and I'd think, "Why would anyone want to mess with the Chosen People?" As I entered my teen years, and I see the stories of Vanessa Redgrave (or was it Lynn?) marching with the Palestinians against the Zionist oppressors, I'd wonder, "Don't the Jews remember what it's like to be oppressed?"
Of course being much older now, I have very little sympathy for the Palestinian cause and could quite probably be considered a Christian Zionist. Of course I pity the average Palestinian citizen who is trying to live life under the crapola of Palestinian leadership. I mean, jeez, the money Arafat syphonned into his own pockets from international largesse should have provoked his own death by the hands of Palestinians.
But they have been led by one jerk after another, and then, as if things weren't bad enough, they go and vote in Hamas the first chance they get. Hard to get worked up over such a stupid people.
Now Israel has pulled out of various areas thanks to Ariel Sharon, and what happened? The Palies trashed the place. As I understand it, there was a whole area that would have provided food and such just by walking in and taking it over and instead, they destroyed everything because it belonged to the Jews. What a bunch of idiots. And of course, they use the new territories as a place to launch more mortar and rocket attacks into Israel.
So what of Israel. I now believe that, conceding the liklihood that they have engaged in certain over the top practices over the years, they generally have acted like normal civilized people toward all those scumbag nations trying to exterminate them. Palestinians living in Israel have a much higher standard of living than do those outside of Israel. Israel IS civilization in a part of the world where there are really only pockets of it and much of it pretense at that. Israel is a tight ally of ours and deserves as much support as we can lend them and we shouldn't be too quick to jump up and demand restraint when Hezbollah, Hamas or Iran decides to start up with them.
The United Church of Christ, the denomination of which my congregation is a part, supports divesting in Israel, and they speak against "Christian Zionism" as if it is only about end times considerations. Just another reason why I'd like my church to bail on the UCC. The fact is, abandoning Israel is akin to supporting all the fanatical and fascist elements of the WOT. This is a bad idea and in a time when there are so few in the world willing to call Evil by it's name, I see supporting Israel as a no-brainer.
By the way, the thread that just dropped off with the posting of this one is, as they all are, still open for comments.
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148 comments:
A good post! I agree.
I shall reserve comment for now. I just want to see if the squirrels start burying their nuts here soon.
Last summer I wrote a post on Israel, and I got (a) an anti-Semite ranting about PNAC, Israel, etc.; (c) an unlinked reposting by someone claiming to represent the ADL calling me an anti-Semite. I just want to see what happens.
If nothing happens soon, I'm sure I can say something . . . provocative.
I got no problem with Israel. In fact, I say we loosen the leash a tad. What good is a puppetmaster status if we can't take advantage of it? Let's be clear - I'm not anti-war across the board. Never have been. There are always situations that warrant some real life games of RISK.
Does that count as a buried nut?
No, les. I am talking about seriously deranged individuals who spout all sorts of conspiracy theories - Trilateral Commission/PNAC/Council on Foreign Relations-type stuff. On the other side, just try and be even a tad bit critical of the state of Israel, and you are accused of continuing the Blood Libel. I was annoyed the first time. Now, I find it hysterically funny.
Gotcha.
Geoffrey, how does the Project For The New American Century qualify as a conspiracy theory?
It doesn't, except in the minds of those who see the evil hands and machinations of conspiracies everywhere. In my experience, those who try to create the threat of the Trilateral Commission and the CFR usually invoke PNAC as a recent addition to the threat to all that is true and good and beautiful. That's all.
Israsel as our ally, I'm fine with. Jews as our Christian forebears, I'm fine with.
Israel in its present state, as a state held as equal to the Israeli people as held forth in Scripture as "God's Chosen People," I have major problems with.
"Christians United for Israel," I see as a lunatic fringe group that, if it had its way, would try to usher in the Second Coming by daring to act as GOD Godself to end the world -- and as such, a group to be fought, in the name of Jesus himself.
"Christians United for Israel," I see as a lunatic fringe group that, if it had its way, would try to usher in the Second Coming by daring to act as GOD Godself to end the world -- and as such, a group to be fought, in the name of Jesus himself.>
Thank God you are not the one judging men's hearts. Remember making a statement similar to that? Well, you and geoffrey do not know the hearts of the people that you are judging either and as for the coming of the Lord; that will be in His timing and no one knows the day or the hour. Are you trying to do some scare mongering to influence people to think the way you do?
Really, ER. What's your problem with CUFI? A quick scan shows them to be simply a grassroots org. who support Israel against lunatics like Ahmadinijad. I did see a wacky anti-war group that has a problem with CUFI, but they look far scarier to me than CUFI ever could. What do you know about them? CUFI, that is?
First of all, Mom2, how did my name get dragged in to this? I have said nothing provocative at all!!!! Man, talk about guilt by association . . .
Second of all, I knew this would get interesting, because for too many Christians there is a continuity between the modern nation-state of Israel and the ancient dual kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Also, the Jewish people and Israel, for these folks, have no life of their own, but are part of the cosmic drama whose fifth act is about to unfold.
CUFI?!? In a novel I have, there is a group called Knights of Christianity United for Freedom. K. C. U. F. It's one of the best jokes in a very funny book.
I think it's time to prime the pump . . .
1) I do not believe that Israel, or any other nation-state has an inherent right to exist that needs to be acknowledged.
2) There is no continuity between the historical two kingdoms described in the Bible and the modern state of Israel. Indeed, the Zionist movement was explicit in its rejection of any such connection.
3) The unquestioned backing of any and all actions of the state of Israel by its (mostly Christian) American supporters ignores the reality of Israeli terrorism, Israeli torture, and the continued illegal occupation of Jordanian territory on the West Bank and the illegal annexation of the Syrian territory of the Golan Heights.
4) As many of the most vocal supporters of the state of Israel amongst Christian zionists also have nothing but disdain for the Jewish people in the practice of their religion, and are adamant that unless the Jewish people convert to Christianity they are destined by Divine Decree to an eternity in a lake of fire, it often puzzles me why Israel accepts the help of those who hold them in personal and religious contempt.
5) There is much justice to many Palestinian claims, even with the quite rightly noted corruption of Arafat and Fatah. Their misbehavior does not negate the justice demands of the Palestinian people.
6) All of the above statements are available in the Israeli press for discussion and debate. For some reason, however, to even bring them up in the United States is to invite the accusation of anti-Semitism.
C'mon, y'all, let's have some fun.
An aside to Mom2, come on over to my place and spread some love. Seriously. You are welcome any time.
Here comes the fun!
1) By this statement, there's no need to give the Palestinians' demands the time of day. They have no claim to this land anyhow, since, despite any arguments regarding modern Jews vs ancient Jews, I believe that this land was given to them by God and see no reason to acknowledge any other claims. That's my personal opinion as a Christian and I see nothing mental about it. Before WWII, the area known as Palestine was inhabited by Jews and other non-Arabs as well as Arabs. Yet, it still wasn't a recognized nation or state.
2) This "fact" is inconsequential to my belief that as Christians we are still oblidged to support Israel and the Jews. It's no big deal. Happy to do it seeing as how they are the civilized culture in the region.
3) I believe tales of Israeli terrorism is overblown and similar to the shameful descriptions of American atrocities as if its the routine rather than the exception. It's helpful to remember that to hear such sad stories from a people sworn to exterminate the entire Jewish population, hard cold proof is required.
4) Though I won't go so far as to say that there may be some who are "disdainful" of the Jews for not believing in Christ, it is natural and Biblical to expect that most, if not all, Christians would love to see all come to Christ and accept Him as their Savior. But pro-Palestinian folk like to paint the pro-Israeli Christians in the same lunatic light as most libs paint fundamentalists. Again, consider the source. Most Christians understand and respect the Biblical connection between Jew and Christian and for that alone support Israel.
5) Continuing the theme begun in #1, the Palestinian claims are rather moot. And despite whatever hardships they may endure in their day to day lives, I have very little sympathy for a people who believes such bloodthirsty things regarding Israel. When they can lay down their weapons for good, then perhaps they can be allowed to voice their concerns. As it stands right now, they prove themselves to be murderous thugs unworthy of consideration. How does it go? "When the Palestinians love their own children as much as we love ours..." They don't. They look forward to having them blow themselves up. I'm totally sick of the whole attitude, be they Palestinian Hamas, Hezbollah, AlQueds, Fatah, whoever, no talk of justice before you stop murdering innocent civilians. I don't think the Palies in Israel have it so bad, unless they're trying to go in and out of the Palie territories. But that's a result of Palie thuggery and they shouldn't bitch to Israel about the behavior of their own people.
So in light of all of the above, Israel can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned. I have no problem with them doing what they believe they need to do while surrounded by millions of murdering assholes. Leaning on Israel, bitching about their tactics, is akin to prosecuting a mugging victim for defending himself. That's crap.
Correction:
4) should have read, "Though I won't go so far as to say that there AREN'T some who are "disdainful" of the Jews for not believing in Christ, etc."
Wow, Marshall, you managed to negate my points through sheer audacity. Congratulations.
Actually, as to #1, your point is interesting, although it does show that negotiations concerning the grievances between Palestinians and Israel need to be based upon reciprocity rather than any inherent rights either has.
In reference to #2, Christians are no more obliged to support Israel and "the Jews" than we are obliged to support peaceful people everywhere, and efforts by people of good will to live together in peace. Israel is not a "Jewish" state, but the creation of secular Zionists. It is a historical fact that American Christians and policy makers in general only started to support Israel unequivocally after the Six Day War when all of Jerusalem was occupied, putting the Wailing Wall and Al 'Aqsa Mosque within Israeli control, igniting the apocalyptic hopes of pre-millennial Christians. To claim that the United States has some obligation towards Israel ignores history and the traditions of real politique, best summed up by a British statesman who said that nations do not have permanent friends, only permanent interests.
All one need to do is watch or listen to John Hagee, one of the leading dispensationalist Christian preachers, who along with all sorts of maps and charts claiming to interpret the book of Revelation, is on record saying that the Jewish occupation of Palestine is nothing more than the means toward the end of the Second Coming of Jesus, at which time the Jews will suffer the punishment coming to them for denying the Messiahship of Jesus. This is common currency among many different Christian groups, typified by the leader of the Southern Baptist Convention who stated in 1980 that God does no hear the prayer of "a Jew".
If you believe that tales of Israeli terrorism are overblown, perhaps you just need to consider the bulldozing of houses, the kidnapping of children, targeted, state-sanctioned murder, as well as the pre-independence terrorist groups that targeted British Imperial personnel (Dr. Ruth Westheimer was a member of one such group, along with the late Moshe Dayan; Westheimer was crippled and Dayan lost his eye when a bomb they were putting place went off early).
For the most part, I believe, one year shy of the 60th anniversary of the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel, we are past the point where pointing fingers at who is more guilty. There is blood enough over there to spread around to everyone's fingers.
One doesn't have to be a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim to read the history of the Jews in the Old Testament. The entire Old Testament is the most accurate and detailed history of the Jews, especially as they relate to God.
I've read the entire OT through, not in a Bible Study setting, but rather, in the same way I would read any book. After simply reading it, one can easily see that the Jews go through cycles in their relationship to God.
They stray away from Him, then they get deciminated, usually by being conquered by Godless enemies, then they come back to God, over and over and over. And they are never wiped out. Never.
It is a cycle of disobeying God, punishment, and repentence. It has been going this way since the beginning of time, neverless, the Jews ARE God's chosen people.
Look at the evidence. They continually disobey God, and incur His wrath, but they are still a blessed people in spite of all they have been through. Where are the Philistines? Where are all of the other people that slaughtered and enslaved the children of God through the centuries?
Gone. But the Jews remain.
The curreent state of Israel is simply part of the cycle when they are being rebellious to God. They, with God's help, will overcome and conquer again.
Doesn't that tell you all something? Doesn't the phrase "God's chosen people" seem to fit when considered in that context?
God is still in control, people. Even when He seems to be non-existent, He is still protecting Israel, in spite of the fact that there are few practicing Jews left in Israel (The current population of Israel is actually more athiest than anything else now), and He always will, and woe to the nation that abandon Israel.
I have read the Bible through also and I NEVER saw where God retracted His promise to Abraham. I will take God's Word over geoffrey's.
"Israel can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned."
Thank you for your honesty about your true allegiances.
hashfanatic, I'm not sure who that comment was for or if it was complimentary or sarcastic, but I don't think any on my side are saying that Israel can do no wrong. However, common sense will make the argument that was presented by Marshall and Mark. I was reading in Genesis last night about the boundaries set up by God for the land that He promised to Abraham and Israel does not occupy nearly all that was promised them.
I also believe the Palestinians have received better treatment from Israel that from many of their surrounding Arab neighbors.
"I was reading in Genesis last night about the boundaries set up by God for the land that He promised to Abraham and Israel does not occupy nearly all that was promised them."
Unfortunately, the Jews of the Bible are not the same people as those who occupy current-day Palestine.
In addition, the Jews are bound to the law, the Old Testament (to which you refer), but if you are a Christian, your covenant is with the New Testament, which supercedes the Old Testament in your case and is not applicable to you.
Hardcore Orthodox Jews will be the first to tell you that those idolators who believe in "yoshke" (the Yiddish slur for Jesus Christ) are not to study or operate in observance to halacha, which I would think a good Christian Zionist (!) would leap to in submission. So why would any Christian, who is satified with the promises God has given THEM?
These are not arcane theological points; rather they are aleph, bet.
There is no such thing as a "Judeo-Christian"...they are two separate belief systems, and never the two shall meet.
Not the heresy of the "Christian Zionist" cults. We are not to listen to them.
hashfanatic, what is the name of your cult?
"However, common sense will make the argument that was presented by Marshall and Mark."
The disconnect here, mom2, is that we are talking about the Power Of The Greater One, that lives inside of me, and the life of the world to come.
When one delves into the personal relationship between the Lord, Jesus Christ, it doesn't HAVE to make sense, in the world's terms.
I am a spirit-filled believer who was given a CHOICE, and I've made it.
That which is of the spirit cannot be understood by those not under its purview (although hopefully, it will be respected and permitted to thrive)...
And our commitment to the safety and well-being of Palestinian Christians, the Maronite Christians in Lebanon and Syria, must never be forsaken.
There is a moral imperative involved, that transcends the cynical political machinations of misguided politicians and the faulty doctrines they espouse, for benefit.
"hashfanatic, what is the name of your cult?"
Pardon?
Just as I am waiting for the Democrats to give their solution to the war in Iraq, I would also ask you to tell how you are going to protect the Christians in the places you mentioned. I pray for Christians everywhere and I hurt to think of the persecution that they are undergoing. With the permissive attitude of the tolerate everything crowd, we may not be far from that same treatment here.
"I pray for Christians everywhere and I hurt to think of the persecution that they are undergoing."
This is good and right, but it's key to remember that they are hated and persecuted, in real terms, far more by the Israelis, then they ever could be by the Muslims.
And this is why I've set myself in total disagreement with the following statement:
"Israel can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned."
It is precisely this attitude, on the part of this government that has no loyalty and knows no bounds, that is the reason we have been targeted by Islamic extremists in the first place!
We have to get back to the basics.
"Just as I am waiting for the Democrats to give their solution to the war in Iraq..."
I really can't tell you what the Democrats' plan is. I can tell you what MINE is, and that is immediate withdrawal (I used to support a Marshall-type plan, but I believe the situation is too far gone at this point).
I'd like to see these troops redeployed to securing OUR borders-both of 'em-while we work our own political nightmare out.
THAT would be a constructive endeavor I believe most Americans could get behind...and the illegals situation is dire, far more than any other manufactured enemies and "terror" abroad...
Iraq requires a political situation from within, not a military one, and not one based on oil, Israel, and logistics.
This is good and right, but it's key to remember that they are hated and persecuted, in real terms, far more by the Israelis, then they ever could be by the Muslims.
I do not believe that statement. I will agree that some is true, but the Muslims holy book prescribes it.
If I could have a prayer answered for the Jewish members of Congress, it would be for them all to turn conservative. That would help.
Well, obviously, that would be horrible for me, and for America...
I'll just pray that God's Perfect Will be done in the situation.
I'll just pray that God's Perfect Will be done in the situation.>
That is a great idea! I "think" you might be surprised at the outcome since you are a liberal.
Seems like most liberals only believe those parts of the Bible that suit their fancy.
Providence intervenes! Go to this post at Sadly!No and watch a video at the annual Washington Conference of Christians United for Israel. They have provided manna from heaven.
(Serial posting alert! Serial posting alert!)
I made some very mild criticisms of Israel, and it was like ringing the bell for Pavlov's dogs. I'm just gonna watch it unfold. . . I hope you brought your popcorn.
Geoffrey, welcome to my world.
(smiles ruefully)
Geoffrey, I checked out your blog and it's an excellent read. Keep up the great work!
Hashfanatic, I keep trying to get Mom2 to come pay a visit, but apparently she believes it is the portal to hell. It isn't like I have a big "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign hanging over it . . .
By the way, Mom2, which part of the Word of God are you preferring to rely upon? The part where the LORD enjoins the Israelites to commit genocide against their neighbors, or the part in the New Testament where the Jews take full responsibility for the crucifixion of Christ, therefore beginning two millenia of Blood Libel against them? Or perhaps it's the part where the LORD anoints the Persian king Cyrus as His Chosen One to release the people from captivity in Babylon?
Oh, wait, probably not that one . . .
Before you go accusing me of being (a) joking around, (b) too young to understand serious matters, or (c) both, let me just say that I am being quite serious, and just because you are older than me does not mean you have some gift of wisdom I lack. In fact, I would posit that, while I take myself not very seriously at all, the seriousness with which you take yourself is far more unwise than anything I have ever posted anywhere.
I still love you, though, Mom2, and I still want you to come visit my site, as often as possible.
The part where the LORD enjoins the Israelites to commit genocide against their neighbors, or the part in the New Testament where the Jews take full responsibility for the crucifixion of Christ, therefore beginning two millenia of Blood Libel against them? >
Is this really your interpretation of why Christ was crucified? That would mean that you and I are sunk then. No provision to keep us or anyone out of hell. Christ came to earth to die. The love of God for lost humanity was so great that He sent His only Son to be the permanent sacrifice for our sins. The Old Testament prophesied Jesus birth (Isaiah 9) and (Isaiah 53) prophesied His death. Those involved in the actual crucifixion were not even alive then, so do you not think that God was in control all the time?
Hi all, I wandered here from Geoffrey's site a while back but have just read from afar until now.
I apologize for this being a bit off topic, but the following statement from mom2 piqued my interest:
so do you not think that God was in control all the time?
This was in reference to Jesus being crucified at the hands of the Jews of the day.
Mom2, are you saying that the prophesies of the Old Testament concerning Jesus's death mean that God forced/caused the Jewish leaders to kill Jesus?
My reference to the blood libel is rooted in the Gospel of St. Matthew, chapter 27, verses 24-25:
When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, and that there was danger of a riot, he took water and washed his hands in full view of the crowd. 'My hands are clean of this man's blood,' he declared. 'See to that yourselves.' With one voice the people cried, 'His blood be on us and on our children.' This is the root of the accusation that Jews are guilty as a people of the crucifixion of Christ. I am not saying it is true. I am merely pointing it out.
As for the why of the incarnation - I don't trouble myself too much over that. Neither do I worry about hell all that much. I leave that to people who actually believe such speculations are either important or necessary. In a world where children are forced to watch their parents die, where political leaders destroy who nations out of some demented sense of self-righteousness, and demented killers stuff the bodies of their victims in refuse piles like so much garbage, the horrors of hell hold little terror for me, Mom2. Our world is stripped of meaning and purpose, life is cheaper than a gallon of gas, and you want me to worry about cavorting demons poking me with pitchforks?
The reference to "Arbeit Macht Frei", by the way is a reference to the gates of Auschwitz, upon which those words hung. In Dante, the gates of hell were emblazoned with the phrase "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here". Somehow, "Arbeit Macht Frei" is more chilling because it is so much less direct. That, mom2, was hell. A life lived without love is hell. The abandonment of the sick and the poor and minorities out of political or economic expedience or ideology is hell. I have no need of your metaphysical hell, mom2, because hell is all too real around me. I do not fear the presence of demons, mom2, because I see their faces on the evening news.
On a different note, Marshall, if you would consult the video to which I linked, you would find evidence of the religious contempt many Christian zionists feel for the Jewish people. It isn't something I made up. It's right there, on video, for anyone to see.
On a different note, Marshall, if you would consult the video to which I linked, you would find evidence of the religious contempt many Christian zionists feel for the Jewish people. It isn't something I made up. It's right there, on video, for anyone to see.
July 26, 2007 7:40 PM >
I know this is addressed to Marshall, but just my two cents.....contempt many Christian zionists feel......so you actually know the percentage? and it is ok to paint all Christians who love Israel in with that category?
As to Cameron's comment, God knows the heart and intent of everyone. He could have called down legions of angels to stop it, but Jesus knew it was His time and He gave His life willingly.
"you would find evidence of the religious contempt many Christian zionists feel for the Jewish people."
They regard the Jews as a means to an end, and the Jews know this and do not care, as long as they get paid.
Why should they care, when they believe we will be boiled in semen for eternity, anyway?
(I am referring chiefly to the haredim, but I believe these concepts are transmitted culturally to the seculars...)
"...so you actually know the percentage? and it is ok to paint all Christians who love Israel in with that category?"
There are the weaker-minded ones who get carried away with the emotional aspects of "loving Israel", which is borne out of self-hate, and yearning for something deeper, that they are not disciplined enough to find within our own covenant relationship, and then the harder types who know the Jews are just an eschatological means to an end.
A tragedy. They will get us all killed one day, with their apocalyptic psychosis.
hashfanatic, Your time and mine are in God's hands.
If you are an educated person, I personally feel you have wasted some money.
Why?
I've been really surprised at the quality and intelligence of most of the commenters here!
Mom2, I needed no education to know that neocons are ridden by a spirit of evil. I know of their trickery and craftiness firsthand.
One's formal education will not get one over in a nest of vipers. It is the power from within, that which is received and not learned, that yields wisdom and discernment in proper measure.
Mom2, I think it's time we stopped jitterbugging and tangoed a bit. Do you believe that those who profess a religious belief other than Christianity are damned, cut off from the grace of God for all time, and destined for hell? As I do not, and as I am unafraid to say so, I do hope you will do me the courtesy of answering in kind.
The reason for asking this question is simple. If you believe that believers in the Jewish faith are separated from the grace of God, your support for Israel is entirely instrumental to a theological end, and a dubious one at that. By supporting the policies of the current state of Israel, you are supporting the continued repression of millions of human beings in the name of your religious beliefs.
Since my religious beliefs include a refusal to countenance the destruction, repression, or other dehumanization of any individual or group, I just wonder how you can square your faith in a loving God with the violence of the state of Israel you seem to support wholeheartedly. Outside the dodge that "it's all in God's hands".
geoffrey, when you can't even see who the violent parties are, what could I say that you would listen to, so I will let you do the talking.
Prov. 17:28 Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace; When he shuts his lips, he is considered perceptive.
Mom2, why won't you answer Geoffrey's question? So what if he doesn't agree with you? We'll know more about what you think, and why. How can that be bad? I note, too, that you're the only one here being snarky on a personal level. Shame on you.
BTW, re: "Thank God you are not the one judging men's hearts."
I agree. But I didn't say anything about anybody's hearts, dang it. I said the Christians United For Israel's politics was insane and dangerous. That's their HEADS I'm judging, which, I think, is fair game. Judgment: Their heads are full of fear, grossly misunderstood Scripture, and hunger for power.
"I just wonder how you can square your faith in a loving God with the violence of the state of Israel you seem to support wholeheartedly."
They cannot.
If you support the actions of the Zionist state (apart from '67 borders, you cannot call yourself a true Christian.
You cannot have it both ways.
You are not to yoke yourself with an unbeliever.
"I said the Christians United For Israel's politics was insane and dangerous."
CUFI stands alone among all churches represented in Israel.
It is an unclean, counterfeit cult.
ER, I have given my views. They will not change. I have been just trying to add a little humor, not snarkiness but I am amused by the "authority" that some young sprouts are so sure of possessing.
I still stand on the authority of God's Word, the Bible.
"I still stand on the authority of God's Word, the Bible."
Well, that's good, but I certainly hope you know and understand what it says!
Because things are not going to be getting better. They are going to be worse, and it's important to have your list of "non-negotiables" ready, because you will be given opportunities to renounce Jesus.
And leaving yourself open to such choices can put your soul and witness at risk, if you're not prepared.
"Judgment: Their heads are full of fear, grossly misunderstood Scripture, and hunger for power."
Amen, brother!
Especially the power part...
Sometimes, I have to take two Advil with a glass of water and lie down, when I think of the final demented horror of it all.
You mean you can read with yer feet, Mom? (My own attempt at slight humor! Better to read it than stand on it, I mean.)
Hash, I don't believe I would ever be so audacious -- great word, that -- as to declare whether anyone was a "true Christian," in the eternal sense. But that's just me.
I do, of course, gladly point it out when I think someone's behavior or ideas are unChristian, as in unJesusy. But no man, as they say, can see the heart. And none is without sin, no, not one, and all fall short of the glory of God, etc., etc.
Ya know, I was living and working a few hours away from Waco when Koresh went up in flames. I decided then, this: I think it's entirely possible for one to so empty oneself in an effort to be open to God's will that the power of God blows the human wiring. Surely that has to be what's going on with at least some extremists and some cults. Surely.
On the other hand, most cults, it seems, are led by people who go in the other extreme: They get so full of themselves they mistake themselves as God, or close, or something.
Sometimes, I have to take two Advil with a glass of water and lie down, when I think of the final demented horror of it all.>
That will not be enough to help. Is our faith not to be in God? It appears to me that some of you have soooo much faith in the political system to cure the ills of the world and that will surely leave you in a sad state.
Mom2, sometimes I don't even understand how you get from where a conversation is to what you write.
Sigh. God provides. But if I lay in bed all day and don't go to work, it's my own dang fault if I don't eat, right? Same with politics; If I don't use my vote and my voice, it's partly my fault when evil continues to persist, whether it's at city hall, or as in the present, the White House.
"Hash, I don't believe I would ever be so audacious -- great word, that -- as to declare whether anyone was a "true Christian," in the eternal sense. But that's just me."
I don't know.
Usually, I'm not given to judgemental statements myself, but it is a subject I feel passionately about. I feel, deep in my soul, that if we allow 650,000 innocent Iraqis to be slaughtered by our own rogue government, in their own sovereign nation, for a lie; if we allow the Palestinians to live and die in misery, heartache, and bedlam, oppressed in their homeland, if we continue to ignore the evil done in the name of Zionism, with our tax money, financial support, and direct shipments of arms, technology, etc...if we do not speak up about the AIPAC and other lobbies that promote a globalist agenda, their foreign oligarchs who dominate what is left of our industries and financial system, and manipulate our politics, our media, and our national cultures....well, I can feel it in my heart that it is an unclean thing, and God is angry at us, as a nation, for aiding and abetting this.
I'm new here and probably won't be staying long, but, trust me, I'm a sinner. I'm not one to pontificate, and I like my politics and my spirit life separate, so that both may thrive. But I know this issue like I know my name, and when I speak on it, it is not necessarily me talking...it could be the supernatural.
I've been reading mom2's posts, and she seems like she is probably a nice and interesting person, but if she supports Israel, in Jesus' name, we can write and enjoy each other's posts as long as it is understood that we cannot be in fellowship, for she is with the enemy.
Why do you think Pope Benedict made his statements two weeks ago? He asserted the Catholic Church's primacy and the legitimacy of the Latin Mass and disregarded the whining of special interest and defamation groups, covertly positioned to destroy Christianity as a whole, because he GETS it. I applaud his position, for everyone knows where they stand, have an end to phony ecumenism, and stop pretending that everyone doesn't have the right to believe what they do.
Because they do.
And I'll never believe that the Jewish people are any less malevolent towards America than Muslims. If we are worried about politics and security, it is China upon which we should focus.
Well, thanks. Sorry to get carried away!
"It appears to me that some of you have soooo much faith in the political system to cure the ills of the world and that will surely leave you in a sad state."
Oh, no, I don't have that much faith in the political system and what it can do.
I DO know that the neocons are a bunch of thieves, liars, murderers, pedophiles, and they are killing America, and I want them removed, because I'm completely uninterested in bipartisanship with such animals.
Remember, I'm a leftist, not a liberal. When it comes to politics, I'm not into peace and love.
hashfanatic, how do you feel about abortion? I think you are a very mixed up person and I don't who or what you are listening to, but I pray for spiritual discernment and you don't ring true.
(meant - don't know who you are listening to)
Wow! A guy takes one twelve hour nap and look what happens! It'll be awhile before I get to all of this, particularly since its the birthday of the fetching Mrs. Marshall Art. (Ah, she still looks young and beautiful!) You all play nice while I'm gone.
Cameron,
Welcome.
If I don't use my vote and my voice, it's partly my fault when evil continues to persist, whether it's at city hall, or as in the present,>
I picked out this part of your statement because it is true, but the part that you and I probably have trouble agreeing on is that God sees the moral picture more clearly than man/woman does and we can't agree on what parts are the most important.
"A guy takes one twelve hour nap and look what happens!"
Good! Glad to hear you are on the mend...remember that good rest is restorative. Happy birthday to your wife, and enjoy your day together.
You have a really interesting blog here, and smart commenters too.
hashfanatic, how do you feel about abortion?
Well, I believe abortion should be safe, legal, available, and rare.
I argued with marsh on this in another venue, but one thing I agree with him on is that there are women who take abortion too lightly, and use it as a form of birth control, and I believe this is inappropriate.
I don't have the same issue as many fundamentalists, who equate the life of a fetus with that of a human being, and I believe many conservatives, with their hostile policies toward children, care only for the fetus, yet drop the baby on its head, once it's born.
I take a dim view of demonstrators outside of abortion clinics, who harass, physically attack, and psychologically torture patients on their way in and out. Nothing about that is Christian.
I have personally witnessed many anti-choice men radically change their tunes when (horrifically) their wives, mothers, or daughters have been raped by some savage.
Obviously, its a form of hypocrisy, but I believe that awareness is a wakeup call and received knowledge directly from God itself, and this is not discussed enough in the Christian community.
And I am uncomfortable with invitro-fertilization, because to me, that is far more unnatural than any form of abortion could ever be.
I believe that many have sadly misinterpreted the Biblical injunction to "be fruitful, and multiply", because they forget the comma.
The "fruitful" part refers to having the financial resources to properly provide a child! The point of the comma is to make it clear that one must only have fleshy union with intention to procreate AFTER they have the wherewhithal to meet the child's needs!
I believe Hillary Clinton's "it takes a village" mantra is one of the most foolish, ass-backwards statements ever made....it takes a PARENT (and hopefully two) in order to raise a child. The "village" should have more important things to do, and needs to mind their own business and get on with their OWN lives, and responsibilities.
"...but I pray for spiritual discernment and you don't ring true..."
Good! Because that's a sign that you are relying on God and not other mortals to guide you.
Again, you seem like an interesting poster, but you are on the other side of the ideological fence in opposition to me and mine, and therefore representative of the enemy.
So, I don't wish you any harm, but I certainly don't wish you any blessings at this point, either.
Thank you for your candor.
Sorry for the long post. I did not mean to bloviate.
So, I don't wish you any harm, but I certainly don't wish you any blessings at this point, either.>
Here is another area of disagreement we have. I would not want blessings withheld from anyone. I do want them to be thankful for their blessings and to let that gratefulness show forth in their lives. I thank God for the many blessings that He has given me and my loved ones, and they have been many and large!
Have a good weekend and may the light of God's grace shine upon you.
Well, Mom, I want us to be able to climb the Big Rock Candy Mountain, too ...
Interesting diversity of opinions in this thread concerning the pros and cons of support for Israeli policies in present-day Israel.
As I stated earlier, I'm on Israel's side more often than not. There seems to be an underlying perception among many of Israel's detractors that Israel has no historical reason to shift the balance of power in its favor. Personally, I think that's absurd. From my understanding of the situation, this idea that Jews and Muslims lived peacefully side-by-side before the mid-20th century is a bit misleading. Jews weren't exactly equals with their Muslim neighbors - they were more like dhimmis. If that's indeed true, then I have no problem with their motivation for what in essence amounts to their own version of the American Revolution. Considering their status as one of this planet's most persecuted groups of people, why WOULDN'T they want to shake things up and claim their own piece of power? And regarding our support for them, I guess one simply has to ask him/herself which side more closely resembles our values/interests/ideology/whatever? While our official support for them might not always be convenient for us, it shouldn't necessarily be contingent on its convenience. Some things are a matter of principle, and I have no problem whatsoever supporting those who more closely resemble our way of life than others.
"Jews weren't exactly equals with their Muslim neighbors - they were more like dhimmis."
Oh, dhimmi, shimmi.
That doesn't justify the continuing persecution, entrapment, and utter subjugation of Palestine and the Palestinian people, and it doesn't justify Americans who think it's just fine and good to waste American lives (not to mention my good ol'-fashioned tax dollars) supporting a vengeful, bloodthirsty, parasitic bunch of animals no better than the Nazis, the so-called "Islamofascists", or any other marauders that preceded them, because they believe twisted neocon theologies, media-controlled propaganda, peer pressure, and hype.
Well, Mom, I want us to be able to climb the Big Rock Candy Mountain, too ...>
ER, You can have the mountain climbing. I was at the Rocky Mountain National Park recently and I prefer my part of the country. You can post pictures of Colorado and I will enjoy them, but I only want to see mountains from the distance.
In case you missed my point, how can we claim to be Christians and not even like our own fellow citizens. I also believe we are not to even want blessings withheld from others, if we want to be blessed.
hashfanatic, where do you get the authority for such a hateful attitude toward the Jews? I don't even think you have your facts right.
I can most certainly understand your concerns, hash. It's a mess over there, and will continue to be so. I guess my question would be this - what's the alternative? What borders would you suggest Israel should agree to? And even if they did, what makes you think their enemies would be satisfied with that very arrangement? I'll agree - I hate seeing ANYBODY subjugated. But what's the flip side? If the Palestinians had the upper hand, would it really be any different?
In addition, I think it's dangerous to dismiss history when dealing with this region, hash. In fact, sadly, its history means EVERYTHING.
And mom2, I think you're misreading hash's position. I don't see his comments as "anti-Jewish", per se. He's simply "anti-Zionist", if you will. Is that correct, hash?
I'm not hateful.
I just have eyes, I see the facts for what they are, and I am not a funda-mental-ist.
I'm not ashamed to say who killed my Savior, I'm not going to overlook the same behavior happening now, and I really have no reason to hold back on my opinions on the matter.
"Some things are a matter of principle, and I have no problem whatsoever supporting those who more closely resemble our way of life than others."
That's fine and good, except in this case, a pesky little thing called right and wrong happens to get in the way of such political expedience.
Americans don't have a CLUE about Palestine.
Americans don't have a CLUE about Palestine.>
hashfanatic, you included.
"What borders would you suggest Israel should agree to?"
Pre-'67, without delay.
Dismantlement of all illegal settlements on Palestinian land is an absolute.
And if Iran is not permitted to have nukes, Israel damn well can disarm the weapons WE provided, that they tried to say they never had.
"If the Palestinians had the upper hand, would it really be any different?"
Absolutely. For it is rightfully theirs to have.
"He's simply "anti-Zionist", if you will. Is that correct, hash?"
Yes, this would be my official position.
"...a pesky little thing called right and wrong happens to get in the way..."
That's fair enough, so let's qualify that statement. Should the position of power be reversed, how would the Muslim treatment of subjugated Jews - for lack of a less specific term - differ from what we see now?
"Should the position of power be reversed, how would the Muslim treatment of subjugated Jews - for lack of a less specific term - differ from what we see now?"
Well, we will never know unless Israel gets back to its own rightful borders, will we?
The opportunity for peace would exist, and the Jews are absolutely uninterested in peace. And our military industrial complex just happens to be peachy with that.
I strongly oppose that.
But you will never see this view expressed in American media, even though it is openly and even intelligently discussed in Israel itself.
And one needs to ask oneself why.
"Well, we will never know unless Israel gets back to its own rightful borders, will we?"
Ok, so if Israel DID miraculously agree to return to the borders that existed before the Six Day War, how would the security issues they faced then be any different today? It seems to me the events that preceded the Six Day War justified its outbreak. What's your take?
"hashfanatic, you included."
Yeah, but I understand the difference between the statements "I am a Christian" and "I am a Jew".
Those who have loyalties other than their own people (which is fine, I guess, if that's the way you want to live your life) can't be trusted to assert themselves honestly on these subjects, because they've lost sight on where their interests lie to begin with.
There is no such thing as "Judeo-Christianity"...the term insults and defiles both.
You can agree or disagree with who's wrong or right, but if you don't even have what covenant you are bound by straight in your own mind, your argument will not even leave the starting gate.
"It seems to me the events that preceded the Six Day War justified its outbreak."
Oh, it most certainly did not!
The propaganda created that illusion (even in the US, whose government had not gone into TOTAL submission to Israel yet) but the truth is, it was one big land grab, and, sadly, America acquiesced because it was otherwise occupied with the beginnings of the Vietnamese quagmire, and the first neocons were getting their hooks in).
Note: I say TOTAL, to clarify that the US already was on its way to showing favoritism towards Israel that would bite them in the butt for years to come. A perfect example was the bombing of the USS Liberty during that period, that most Americans are totally unaware of.
WHY do you think the Islamic world despises us so?
And Europe will not support us, because their media is not controlled by the same forces that ours is, and their citizenry is well informed regarding what is really happening in Palestine.
"WHY do you think the Islamic world despises us so?"
That's a loaded question, to be sure, and one I've often asked my opponents when discussing our current strategy in the so-called "War on Terror". It's important to keep in mind that the acknowledgement of nuance is absolutely crucial to any fair discussion of our policy in the Middle East, and it happens to be the reason I often differ with fellow liberals when dealing with Israel, specifically.
That being said, our officiousness in the region is one big reason. For example, Operation Ajax. In fact, I think that mindset is THE primary reason we see so much trouble over there. Personally, I believe this notion that "they hate our freedom" is another example of overblown propaganda you touched on earlier that's been updated to fit today's political atmosphere. I don't buy it. It's about power - always has been.
In regards to the pre-Six Day War conditions, I'm not sure which specifics you have issue with. If you'd like to elaborate, I'd be more than happy to offer my opinion.
Lets' see. First, Mom2 avoided answering my question, from which I will infer nothing other than cowardice. She brought up abortion (?!?). Then, les entered the fray and returned us to the central issue in a way that is balanced, fair, if slightly pro-Israel. I say this last not in a negative way, just descriptive.
I think hashfanatic's description of the Six Day War as a "land grab" is disingenuous. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq were massing troops, and Israel hit Egypt's air force first as a way of negating any advantage they might have had. By pushing up through the Golan Heights, across the Gaza Strips and in to the Sinai Peninsula, and through the West Bank to the Jordan River, Israel tightened its borders, shortening its defensive position vis-a-vis its Arab enemies. There is nothing inherently wrong with that; it is sound military thinking, and makes good strategic sense. To quote a person I loathe, Henry Kissinger's approach granting certain "facts on the ground" has a certain logic to it, in a real politique kind of way.
The demand that Israel return to its pre-1967 borders assumes not only good will among its neighbors (at this point, I think they understand they will get thumped whenever they attempt a move against Israel; it's not the same as goodwill, but it's close enough). It also assumes something that is rarely discussed - equal access to resources, especially water from the Jordan valley and the aquifers that exist under the West Bank. As it stands, not only do Israeli settlements cut off Palestinian lands from one another - four-lane highways connect the settlements, with no access from Palestinian land - but the Israelis have a monopoly on all the natural resources, especially water. It is usually ignored in all the discussions that range around the religious dimension of the question, but it always come down to this: this is old-fashioned power politics of national survival. The Palestinians get bupkus (to quote Tony Snow) and the Israelis get the water.
Finally, to return to Mom2, I wonder why she engages in these forums if her mind won't change? She apparently believes she and she alone has all truth and wisdom; I feel blessed to have her among us here. I, for one, recognize that I might just be wrong about pretty much everything. Her over-confidence is quite astonishing.
Why won't you tell me if you think Jews are going to hell, along with Hindus, Buddhists, animists, Sikhs, Jains, and liberal Christians like me? C'mon, Mom2, have the courage of your convictions and fess up.
Excellent point about the water access, Geoffrey. Attempts to squeeze Israel out pre-67 were one of the primary reasons they attacked. That's one of the reasons I find it hard to believe anything would change today were they to surrender their position. What gesture of good faith have their enemies given them to think differently?
"If you'd like to elaborate, I'd be more than happy to offer my opinion."
To me, it was blatant opportunism. Saber-rattling in the region was nothing new, but Israel took the opportunity to launch a pre-emptive war against her neighbors, and profited handsomely from it.
They set a precedent for the preemptive strategy, something that simply was not in the American ethic before. Americans are always taken in by this mystical view of Israeli military strength and power, without recognizing that there was no moral justification for the actions this engendered. This disconnection from our traditional posture of Americans having strength and power, and at least trying to use it for altruistic purposes, morphed into
the imperialist, malevolent American dragon, the killologist, that threatens every sovereign nation on earth with something to exploit, something to steal.
And I blame the neocons, with assistance by Israeli hawks and big-money media elites and Hollywood movie moguls, venture capitalists, and bankers, as having fatally altered America's moral essence, and high ground.
The religious differences are all red herrings and window dressings, calculated to offend every human being's sense of self and personal security, and foster compliance.
And nobody dares to speak out, for fear of the old antisemitic canard.
Well, that's the way I see it.
Israel has a water problem as well, as they still continue to purchase water from Turkey, and I've always wondered how long such an arrangement could last, as Turkey becomes more fundamentalist on its own.
"Americans are always taken in by this mystical view of Israeli military strength and power, without recognizing that there was no moral justification for the actions this engendered."
The American adoption of pre-emption, while most definitely a related issue, fails to apply to Israel's motivations for the Six Day War though, hash. This notion that Israel was unprovoked and consequently unjustly victimized its neighbors is simply untrue, and ignores a vital part of the region's history. It's certainly easy to judge the long-term ramifications of Israel's actions in hindsight, but said hindsight was not a luxury the fledgling state enjoyed a half a century ago. For all intents and purposes, their very survival was under threat.
That Israel acted pre-emptively is undoubtedly true. On the other hand, their hand was forced. I think they were entirely justified in what they did.
As for the motivations for the war, I think it important to remember that Nasser was wobbling a bit. What better way to buttress his domestic strength than lead a war against Israel? His dream of a pan-Arab, modern, secular version of the old Ottoman Empire was doomed to failure anyway, and Sadat was waiting in the wings for a dismal failure like Egypt's against Israel. The best thing that ever happened to them was losing that war.
I do not think it either possible or likely that Israel will return to its pre-1967 borders. It might be nice if it at least acknowledged the illegality of the annexation of the Golan Heights and paid reparations to Syria, but I will probably turn blue and die before that ever happens. As for the settlement movement on the West Bank, the only thing that will stop it is political will and muscle from Tel Aviv, and we all know how much of that there is . . .
"Why won't you tell me if you think Jews are going to hell, along with Hindus, Buddhists, animists, Sikhs, Jains, and liberal Christians like me?"
Some believe in dispensationalist and pre-trib theories that, to make a long story short, will permit Jews to be saved if they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior...it gets more involved as they consider Jews the Chosen People (usually without any real understanding of what that actually encompasses).
Also a Catholic is not saved unless they are born again, but saved if they have accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior (they do not believe that Catholics are saved without this gesture, or that Catholic theology encompasses this by definition).
Mainstream Protestant churches have pretty much the same litmus test, but in practice, liberals are shunned regardless of affiliation if they dare speak their views.
It's safe to say that liberals, leftists, progressives, etc. are universally hated (though they will never admit this) by the evangelicals across the board, and right-wing Orthodox Jews share this hatred, which is the true bond that glues them together when they interact.
This is interpreted as acceptance among the evangelicals, although nothing could be further from the truth. The evangelical Christian uses the Jew as a sort of permission slip for the end times, and the Jews denounce the Christians from top to bottom, beating up their missionaries in Meah Shearim, calling them Amalek, spitting on churches, crosses, and statues, and instructing their children to do the same.
If that's not "dhimmitude" for the Christians, I don't know what is.
Hash Fanatic says, "I've been really surprised at the quality and intelligence of most of the commenters here!"
I would say I'm surprised at the amount of arrogant elitism in that statement, but I'm not. It is typical of Liberals who like to think they have some higher intelligence than us poor mortals.
Hash= a term used for Hashish, a mind altering drug, more potent than marijuana.
Fanatic=marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion
I must assume by your name that your God is a mind altering drug. And yet you refer to Jesus as your Savior, and tell everyone here that you are a Christian. Well, you may be a Christian, or you may not. That is known only by you and God.
But if you are truly a hash fanatic, how do you justify your apparent "intense devotion" to drugs?
God said, "You shall not have any other Gods before me", and Jesus said, "No man can love two masters" Do you believe that? If so, how can you be a hash fanatic and a Christian at the same time?
And, more to the point of the topic, how can you defend Palistine or any other Arab country against Israel? According to the Bible, they are God's chosen people, even if they don't acknowledge God, and God specifically gave the Jews the land that the Arab countries are currently trying to take from them.
How can you say the land rightfully belongs to Palestine, when God, whom you claim to worship, plainly says it does not?
Geoff, you say, "The abandonment of the sick and the poor and minorities out of political or economic expedience or ideology is hell. I have no need of your metaphysical hell, mom2, because hell is all too real around me. I do not fear the presence of demons, mom2, because I see their faces on the evening news."
I say, if you think those things are Hell, you aint seen nothing yet!
For one thing, all those things you mentioned are horrible, but finite. Hell is eternal. Imagine all those things you mentioned as being hell, and intensify them a million times. You still cannot grasp the concept of Hell.
There are many different descriptions of Hell according to the Bible, re: a lake of fire, flames, toment, etc, but it also describes Hell as a place of outer darkness. If that is true, there won't be any demons poking anyone with pitchforks, nor will there be any one to share your torment with, as it implies the damned will be completely alone in total darkness for eternity.
Eternity. Try to fathom that.
In the film, "On Borrowed Time", The character of Grandpa says, "Eternity is a right smart piece of time".
I believe the best and most accurate description of Hell is eternal separation from God, and that, sir, is worse than any Hell you could ever imagine.
Do yourself a favor and try not to confine God and His omnipotence to a finite human concept. He is much more than that, and so is Hell.
Mark?
"I would say I'm surprised at the amount of arrogant elitism in that statement, but I'm not. It is typical of Liberals who like to think they have some higher intelligence than us poor mortals."
I guess if you want to project the way my comment made you FEEL, or how most of those evil liberals make you FEEL about your own status in life, that's fine. I'm sorry you feel the need to, but that's your business, so knock yourself out.
One thing you might be interested in knowing (for KNOWING is sometimes better than FEELING) is that I was originally drawn here after getting into a vehement disagreement with Marshall, on the subject of abortion, on another blog, whose owner is, IMHO, a few fries short of a Happy Meal.
I was intrigued when I linked to Marshall's blog, and initially intended to just comment and leave. But I read some of his posts, checked out some of the interesting commenters, and stopped to consider that there was a possibility that Marshall may not have been such an evilian after all.
But if you are truly a hash fanatic, how do you justify your apparent "intense devotion" to drugs?
Actually, I'm not a drug user at all.
My screen name refers to "hashkafah", the Hebrew word for "perspective".
"I must assume by your name that your God is a mind altering drug. And yet you refer to Jesus as your Savior, and tell everyone here that you are a Christian. Well, you may be a Christian, or you may not. That is known only by you and God."
And?
"God said, "You shall not have any other Gods before me", and Jesus said, "No man can love two masters" Do you believe that? If so, how can you be a hash fanatic and a Christian at the same time?"
See what happens when ya assume? :)
"And, more to the point of the topic, how can you defend Palistine or any other Arab country against Israel?"
Easily.
"According to the Bible, they are God's chosen people..."
The meaning you've ascribed to that particular phrase does not refer to the Jews of modern-day Israel.
I am one of God's chosen people.
I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
And I am not a Jew.
"even if they don't acknowledge God..."
That's to say the least.
"God specifically gave the Jews the land that the Arab countries are currently trying to take from them."
Well, no, that is incorrect as well, and most likely a result of false teaching, bad theology, and an unwillingness to remain teachable. The Jews of modern-day Israel are not the same Jews referred to in the Bible, and no Zionist nation existed (for historical purposes) prior to the end of World War Two. The Jewish state was only permitted because of internalized guilt on the part of the British and Americans over apparent atrocities against Jews during the war, and their collective unwillingness to allow them admittance.
"How can you say the land rightfully belongs to Palestine, when God, whom you claim to worship, plainly says it does not?"
Because I know and understand the history of the matter, because I am not a fundamentalist Christian and accept the context and value of what the Bible really says without distorting the Word for political machinations or the work of dark forces responsible for the murder of Jesus Christ, and because the death and destruction wraught in the Middle East for year upon year does not bring the Lord the proper glory.
The carnage is by ordinance of mortal man, not the Lord.
John 14:6 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
geoffrey, there is my answer to your question.
hashfanatic, you are not the same person that was alive and spoken to in Christ's time either, but we still consider ourselves eligible for His grace. It is as I said earlier, I have never read where God's promises to the seed of Abraham were retracted. If you think we can trample on Israel and not feel any consequences, you better go back and read some more.
Mom2, I've already addressed the fact that I am not a fundamentalist, and respectfully, I hope I don't have to address the matter again.
"If you think we can trample on Israel and not feel any consequences, you better go back and read some more."
Perhaps you think you can shove ME into an oven because you've unilaterally decided that criticism of Israel constitutes "trampling" on it?
Perhaps your world and existence would be quite happy with yet one less evil "leftist", one less of the "Whore of Babylon"?
Consider yourself rebuked.
Perhaps you think you can shove ME into an oven because you've unilaterally decided that criticism of Israel constitutes "trampling" on it?
Whatever gave you a stupid idea like that? You seem to be delusional. Remarks like that are inflammatory, but I will ignore it. The curse causeless will not harm a Child of God and I don't even know what you are supposed to be rebuking. Who is acting like the bully here? Am I not entitled to an opinion? You can believe whatever you want to, you will be responsible for your own beliefs.
Mom2, what if a Christian seeker saw you operating in a spirit of condemnation with someone you simply did not agree with?
"Whatever gave you a stupid idea like that? You seem to be delusional."
And you've been an insulting, arrogant hypocrite since the moment I got here. There are other individuals who share your extremist fundamentalist views who do not express themselves in such an unbecoming manner.
I was very honest and direct with you in explaining that, while you seemed earnest, your interpretation of scripture puts you at odds, not just with the issue of Israel, but with my very own survival, as a believer who puts my own fellow believers over those you ally with.
"Am I not entitled to an opinion?"
You are not expressing opinions. You are targeting me for harassment because I expressed my opinion, and you, with your cruel, mocking words and barely disguised contempt for that which you obviously have no capacity for understanding, and by definition could not have received as revelation knowledge from the Holy Spirit. I have already directed you to back off from the stern, unforgiving proselytising, but you insisted upon being pushy and aggressive about your false doctrine and idolatry, so I turned around and told you who you were.
I suppose, according to your covert belief system, that would not be a pre-emptive strike?
"You can believe whatever you want to, you will be responsible for your own beliefs."
Fair enough, but unlike you, I know I will be held responsible for my deeds as well.
Klal Yisroel already knows that you will protect them from harm.
Can mainstream Christians and Americans, regardless of race, color, creed, and political persuasion, afford to assume the same?
Geoff, you dickens,
As you stated, this topic is a scorcher. The number of comments grows and grows and I STILL haven't the time to jump in. But I will at least address this:
Hash,
First, thanks for finally explaining your moniker, but I still think you have a sick problem with corn beef and that Hebrew stuff is just a cover.
Secondly, as far as my statement, "Israel can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned"...this means that they are free, in my mind, to do whatever they feel necessary to thwart the attempts of neighbors trying to wipe them from existence. This would include not just the Palies, but any other Arab country that has expressed the desire to annihilate Israel, or teaches their kids that Jews are animals worthy only of death.
You really want peace in the Middle East? Fine. Go tell your poor oppressed Palestinians and their supporters throughout the region to lay down their weapons and pledge eternal friendship and harmony with Israel. A billion to one Israel accepts and welcomes them with open arms. Your idea that Israel does not want peace is absolutely goofy. It's as has been said, if the Palies lay down their arms, there will be peace, and if the Jews lay down their arms, they will be wiped out. I use my eyes as well, and I've never seen anything to make me feel that this axiom isn't true.
More later.
"First, thanks for finally explaining your moniker, but I still think you have a sick problem with corn beef and that Hebrew stuff is just a cover."
Sorry to disappoint, marsh, but them's the facts. I happen to be forty-one years of age, and have no use for adults behaving like teenagers at any rate.
Why do cons always, when someone comes clean about something, think that what they THINK overrides the reality of the situation? Is it that you have an explanation for opinions you can't imagine, and have to ascribe some drug habit to it?
I'm too tired to argue further about Israel, except for one point.
I'd like you to explain to me why my tax dollars need to supply armaments, weaponry, defense systems, personnel carriers (sometimes used to kill our own people, btw), their economy, their media, their religious sites (stolen from Christians)....
"It's as has been said, if the Palies lay down their arms, there will be peace, and if the Jews lay down their arms, they will be wiped out."
Okay, you drank the Kool-Aid on this one. Hell, you got twelve packs of it, filled your tub to the rim, and went swimming in it.
Fine.
But if you can whine about your tax money being used to support essential services for AMERICANS, why the hell does my money have to go to support those murderous Pharisees?
Explanation, please.
"Just another reason why I'd like my church to bail on the UCC."
Okay, why should your church change its denominational affiliation in order to accommodate your extremist political views?
Perhaps your views have, uh, changed since you joined up?
The UCC, to me, is a relatively liberal denomination, and I've seen you express opinions that seem more fundamentalist. Why'd you pick a church like that in the first place?
"The meaning you've ascribed to that particular phrase does not refer to the Jews of modern-day Israel."
Really?
Please tell us what metabolic change occurred that changed Israel to ...something else? We are talking about a nation, not a religion.
Go back, if you will, to my first comment here. The Jews have constantly rebelled against God since cain slew Abel. And God constantly punishishes them for their rebellion. And they constantly come back to God. They will throw themselves upon His mercy again. What you see in Israel now is just another rebellion.
I see your point, though. I agree that we Christians are God's people also, but the Bible doesn't say anywhere that the jews have forfeited the title of God's Chosen people.
The operative word here is "Chosen". In both cases, a choice is made. We Christians have chosen God. He has chosen the Jews.
My screen name refers to "hashkafah", the Hebrew word for "perspective". Well thanks for clearing that up. I apologize for assuming the worst.
However, you seem to be a very intelligent person. How is it that you didn't foreseee that people would misunderstand the moniker? Could it be you wanted people to think you are a drug user? If so, why? It's not like you didn't hav e enough characters to spell the whole thing out.
By the way, the statement that Jews murdered Jesus Christ is about as anti-semitic a statement one could make. It truly sounds exactly like you really hate Jews.
You might want to look at it this way:
The Jews fulfilled their destiny by putting Jesus to death. He was sent by God to die for all mankind. The Jews were used by God to fulfill His plan of salvation to the world. So, basically, they did what He intended. Therefore you should be thanking the Jews for doing their part for your ultimate salvation, not hating them for it. Withoput the shedding of Christ's blood, there is no remission of sin. If they had not put Him to death, we would still be sacrificing livestock as atonement for sins.
The boundaries of The Jews land as determined and given to them by God Himself, are clearly laid out in Genesis. As Mom2 said, there is no place in the Bible where God retracted His promise to Abraham's ancstors.
You aren't a fundamentalist? That's certainly convienient, isn't it? If you don't like what God says, or you decide you want to disagree with Him, then all you have to say is "I don't believe everything in the Bible is factual" and that lets you off the hook, doesn't it? How perfect is that position? For you, if you decide it's not true, then it isn't. End of argument.
I won't waste my time arguing with someone who thinks truth is relative. You might as well say up is down, white is black, the sky is under our feet and the ground above us. For the relativist, all those things are true, if he says it is.
Mark,
"However, you seem to be a very intelligent person."
No, I am not. I am a person who believes my intelligence is pulp. Marshmallow Fluff. Tapioca pudding, and not an inch above.
Nevertheless, I've had some unusual experiences in life, and I'm certainly no satanic monster, so I contribute anyway.
Never be fooled by people who sound intelligent. Some of them are the biggest fools on God's green earth.
"How is it that you didn't foreseee that people would misunderstand the moniker?"
If I continue to frequent wingnut blogs, I guess I may have to change my screenname, as it appears that there are a multitude of vicious posters on this side of the aisle who will take any opportunity to slander anyone who threatens their sense of security and well-being.
Be mindful of the fact that I never had this particular problem on my side of the blogosphere.
"Could it be you wanted people to think you are a drug user?"
Sure, Mark. I wake up every morning of my life trying to perfect my Rush Limbaugh impression for the benefit of the commonweal.
"If so, why? It's not like you
didn't have enough characters to spell the whole thing out."
Yes, Mark, the screenname "hashkafahfanatic" is something I'd really feel comfortable typing over and over again.
As I said, I'll most likely adjust my screenname to accommodate "politically correct", paranoid neoconservative sensibilities.
"What you see in Israel now is just another rebellion."
This is incorrect. The Zionist state has brought just as much misery, death, and destruction (and at quite a high cost to America and the rest of the West, I might addd)
as any "Islamofascist" regime.
"...we Christians are God's people also..."
No, we are God's people, PERIOD.,
"By the way, the statement that Jews murdered Jesus Christ is about as anti-semitic a statement one could make."
I believe that Liquid Tide is the most godawful laundry detergent ever invented. It is costly without providing equal benefit, it has a stench that never seems to go away, it fades colors so that all of my garments look the same as one another, and all I see in my washer is a bunch of billowy, puffy suds that break out my skin and serve no real purpose in cleaning my wash.
Yet you don't see me descending with an AK-47 upon Proctor and Gamble's headquarters.
If you choose to denounce me as antisemitic because I disapprove of the Jews doing precisely that to others which they claim the world has done to them, and can't see the essential hypocrisy in your own statements, there's not much I can say to deflect your slander.
I calls 'em as I sees 'em.
"It truly sounds exactly like you really hate Jews."
Oh? Really?
It truly sounds to me that you hate virtually everyone else.
Especially yourself, and your own.
But things are not always as they sound, I guess.
"...but the Bible doesn't say anywhere that the jews have forfeited the title of God's Chosen people..."
And I didn't see any parchment directives floating down from on high proclaiming that Biblical injunctives on slavery had been amended...yet, I don't see us practicing it anymore, either.
Coincidence, or divine intention?
The choice is yours as to which you choose to believe.
"The Jews fulfilled their destiny by putting Jesus to death. He was sent by God to die for all mankind. The Jews were used by God to fulfill His plan of salvation to the world. So, basically, they did what He intended. Therefore you should be thanking the Jews for doing their part for your ultimate salvation, not hating them for it. Withoput the shedding of Christ's blood, there is no remission of sin. If they had not put Him to death, we would still be sacrificing livestock as atonement for sins."
I hold differently, and our views are incompatible on the subject.
"You aren't a fundamentalist? That's certainly convienient, isn't it?"
In Republican-dominated America, in 2007? No, not really, but I'm going the distance, nonetheless.
"If you don't like what God says, or you decide you want to disagree with Him, then all you have to say is "I don't believe everything in the Bible is factual" and that lets you off the hook, doesn't it?"
Well, no, Mark. That's your self-serving analysis of what I've written on a message board that disquiets your inner peace and misconceptions about the truth of God's Word that you've created for yourself, couched in the perfect, soul-crushing theobabble that abounds within the false churches and evangelical halls of corruption, malfeasance, fraudulence, and downright silliness foisted on all true believers for the past twenty years. But I guess that once you become accustomed to calling things as you wish them to be, rather than how they are, and are confronted with anything that threatens your illusion, your only recourse in absence of any evidence to the contrary is to swim in the sea of your own Spirit-led arrogance and say what you FEEL.
I am not moved by what I FEEL.
"I won't waste my time arguing with someone who thinks truth is relative."
That's fine, as long as you understand that Christianity and Judaism are 100% incompatible with one another, and that you are fully responsible for the judgements and decisions you have made for yourself, as long as you continue to be out of line with what God has commanded of you.
"You might as well say up is down, white is black, the sky is under our feet and the ground above us."
I have my beliefs, and then I have my opinions. And my feet are planted firmly on this earth.
"For the relativist, all those things are true, if he says it is."
Well, when you come across an actual relativist, let us know your impressions of the experience!
In the interim, I may be lying in your gutter, but I'm keeping my eyes on the heavenlies....
If you are keeping your eyes on the heavenlies, I am left wondering what you are seeing. If you can't tolerate conservatives here on earth, I have bad news for you.......there are going to be a lot of them in heaven.
"Is it that you have an explanation for opinions you can't imagine, and have to ascribe some drug habit to it?"
No. It's largely because your opinons can be so "out there" that drugs is a reasonable explanation. If you believe you're calling 'em like you see 'em, one wonders why your vision seems so impaired. Your views on this subject are not just 180 degrees opposite, but you take a few extra steps further back.
I don't deny that there have been Israeli "terrorist" attacks in their early days, but I never heard of them purposely targeting civilians the way the Palies do. And I would would further concede that the Israelis may have engaged in practices I find distasteful, but at the same time, the intention and direction of such practices are doubtfully on par with their enemies. As long as they are threatened by those who wish to annihilate them, I have no trouble with their designs on terrirtories that afford them the best strategic positions.
You lament the American financial support of Israel, yet, you make no mention of the large sums we've sent to support the Palestinian people that basically ended up in Arafat's wallet. We've sent them enough to provide all sorts of services and opportunities for their people, and they use it to line their pockets and attack Israel. We cut it off once they elected the savage Hamas murderers, and still are considering renewing our financial support. Frankly, I insist we cut off all support for any country that continues to preach against the existence of one our most solid allies in the region.
Also, I would posit that you, Hash, have at least an unswerving mindset as any fundamentalist. In fact, based on your comments, you sound very cult-like. You ARE a relativist if you can't see the difference between someone strapping explosives to their kids' bodies to explode in a civilian area to a nation that targets a known hideout of a terrorist leader. If the terrorist leaders refrained from hiding amongst the civilian population, there'd be fewer Palie civilians killed in retaliatory strikes.
You prefer to think I'm drinking the Kool-aid when I describe the results of either side laying down arms. I think you're plainly insane to believe it isn't true. But this isn't debate. So where do you get the feeling that Israel is just as savage in their designs on the region as the Palie/Muslims are?
For Mark, please attend. . .
I know what eternity is, and it isn't infinite time. Eternity is timelessness, the absence of time rather than a never ending time-period. I agree with you that hell is separation from God, yet what are we to make of Psalm 139:8b? Obviously Sheol, the ancient Hebrew abode of the dead, is not the same as the Christian myth of hell, yet this is a hymn of the boundless grace of God, even after death. I don't want exegesis, I just throw it out there as a beginning.
Second, you dismiss the very real horrors of this world, horrors far too many of your fellow human beings suffer, much too blithely for my taste. You seem to think that your sadistic imaginings are greater than the very real pain and suffering people experience, and are therefore of greater importance. I would much rather weep with those who weep, and work to do something to end their weeping, than to sit around and worry about some goat-footed, behorned spirit poking me with a pitchfork. I have seen far too much evil and terror in the world to be cowed by the idea that there exists some non-physical space where bad people writhe in pain while Virgil conducts tours for 14th century poets.
Hell holds no horror for me because I see no reason to fear something that doesn't exist. Appealing to Scripture is hardly convincing; the Bible says all sorts of contradictory things about all sorts of subjects, the afterlife (when it affirms one) among the rest. Hell is the Christian baptism of both the Hebrew Sheol and Greek and Roman ideas of the afterlife, and the accretion of myth, legend, and popular culture over centuries have created an image that is hard to shake. Hard, but not impossible. I am a good and faithful Christian, and I find the idea of hell insulting and ludicrous. And maybe, if I bought into the idea, a bit blasphemous.
Zionism was a movement of secular Jews in Europe at the end of 19th century that sought escape from the anti-Semitism that includes a refusal to see the Jewish people as human beings, but as theological instruments. The Zionists had pretty typical 19th century views of imperialism, including the notion that other people's lands were available for the taking if those other people had brown skin, so the notion of settling in Palestine wasn't so much a question of recreating the ancient kingdom as it was an expedient (they figured they might get help from guilt-laden Christians who would support them even as they laughed at their stupidity behind their backs; it seems they were right). Among the other sites considered - and rejected - was the island of Madagascar (Hitler, too, thought of using the island as a kind of giant concentration camp where the Jews of Europe would be resettled, before Himmler came up with a worse idea).
I find the kind of instrumental reason you put forward here, whereby the Jewish people have no existence in and for themselves, but serve God's purposes for the sake of the Christian churches, horrible, demeaning, and insulting. Just as you dismiss the sufferings of your fellow human beings too blithely, you dismiss the very humanity of other people based solely upon a few scattered Bible verses. I suppose you feel fully justified in doing so; I do not.
I have reservations about Zionism in general, but one part of it I endorse whole-heartedly. I support the notion that the Jewish people are not a theological entity, but people, who should be allowed to live in peace outside the concern and hatred of those who consider their very existence a threat.
"If you can't tolerate conservatives here on earth, I have bad news for you.......there are going to be a lot of them in heaven."
Maybe when pigs fly.
Or Keith Olbermann wears overalls to the studio.
Power on to zero hour, mamaleh! :)
"Your views on this subject are not just 180 degrees opposite, but you take a few extra steps further back."
But those are your self-imposed limitations on truth, not mine or God's, and they are not serving America's interests well.
"I don't deny that there have been Israeli "terrorist" attacks in their early days, but I never heard of them purposely targeting civilians the way the Palies do."
Then your eyes are closed, or your vision is distorted by the neocon-dominated media.
"And I would would further concede that the Israelis may have engaged in practices I find distasteful, but at the same time, the intention and direction of such practices are doubtfully on par with their enemies."
Agreed.
But their enemies have not seized control of our financial system, our media, our military intelligence, or the leadership of the government.
Why would I concern myself with nutty Muslims flying planes in buildings, when we have nutty Israelis commandeering our government?
As long as they are threatened by those who wish to annihilate them, I have no trouble with their designs on terrirtories that afford them the best strategic positions.
The problem is that the Palestinians don't want to annihilate them, they just want them to stay on their rightful side of the fence, stop using helicopter gunships to fire into their childrens' bedrooms, blocking their OWN roads and access to gainful employment, medical care, etc., bombing their neighbors into mute submission, killing their children and altering every digital image of it, and using them as propaganda tools to stir up trouble in the rest of the world, and stop jamming them into concentration camps and leaving them "refugees" in their own land.
"You lament the American financial support of Israel, yet, you make no mention of the large sums we've sent to support the Palestinian people that basically ended up in Arafat's wallet."
Because there is no comparison.
"We've sent them enough to provide all sorts of services and opportunities for their people, and they use it to line their pockets and attack Israel."
So? The Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against aggression, as do all sovereign nations. If it weren't for the US's blind support for Israel and the fact that they've been supplying Israel with the means to annihilate every other nation in the region for years, the Israelis wouldn't have a pot to piss in and the other nations wouldn't have to resort to unpleasant methods to fight for their own safety and survival.
"We cut it off once they elected the savage Hamas murderers, and still are considering renewing our financial support. Frankly, I insist we cut off all support for any country that continues to preach against the existence of one our most solid allies in the region."
Ridiculous. Israel is no ally of America. Israel is no ally to anyone but themselves.
"Also, I would posit that you, Hash, have at least an unswerving mindset as any fundamentalist. In fact, based on your comments, you sound very cult-like."
What sort of cult?
"You ARE a relativist if you can't see the difference between someone strapping explosives to their kids' bodies to explode in a civilian area to a nation that targets a known hideout of a terrorist leader."
But your view of the facts have been obscured by years of neocon propaganda and Kahanist "transfer" theology, so it is more that you see me as the erev rav than a neutral party to the discussion.
Christianity and Judaism are 100% incompatible.
"If the terrorist leaders refrained from hiding amongst the civilian population, there'd be fewer Palie civilians killed in retaliatory strikes."
I don't think so. Look at what happened during the war against Lebanon last summer.
To me, your reasoning is the definition of moral relativism.
Besides, if you supported last summer's bombing of Maronite Christian neighborhoods in Lebanon last summer, that proves my point that people like you place Israel's supposed interests over the lives of your own people.
"You prefer to think I'm drinking the Kool-aid when I describe the results of either side laying down arms. I think you're plainly insane to believe it isn't true."
Well, it bothers me, but you are somewhat more moderate than others on the subject. I only wish you could understand that your distaste for anything Muslim and your (probable) belief that the Jews blend into the American worldview more easily than those ragheads to the East, and are therefore less malevolent to our ways and beliefs, is a complete and total fabrication.
So where do you get the feeling that Israel is just as savage in their designs on the region as the Palie/Muslims are?
I've lived with them, I've loved them, I've spent the better part of my life closely interacting with them on several levels, and I understand that a murderous, brutal psychosis, led by the worship of falsehoods and hysterical paranoia, has developed. And I understand their feelings toward us, and how easily Americans are manipulated, to their detriment.
And I see that, if Israel rejects the roadmap to peace that our leaders spent endless days trying to hammer out for them, we must reject them, surely as we must reject any other land's state-sponsored terrorism.
Americans are thinking they can USE Israel as a bulwark against Islamic terrorists, and get away scot-free. This is not possible.
"I have reservations about Zionism in general, but one part of it I endorse whole-heartedly. I support the notion that the Jewish people are not a theological entity, but people, who should be allowed to live in peace outside the concern and hatred of those who consider their very existence a threat."
Good post, Geoffrey.
Just a note for those unacquainted with Mark:
If you ever refer to Jesus, be sure to use his full, first and last names, or Mark will assume, and accuse you of, not believing in the full divinity of the Lord exactly as he does, which, of course, is the ONLY way. Just ask him.
The best solution I've found is to refer to the Lord thusly: Mr. Jesus Christ.
So Mark believes that Joseph's last name was Christ?
What exactly does "Jesus full divinity" mean, Mark? I know what the tradition means by the phrase - all that Platonic substance/hypostasis stuff - but I want to know what you mean by it.
Well, go ask him at his blog. I don't approve of ER bringing up his personal problems with Mark here. So, Er, do not use this blog as a forum to abuse anyone else but me. Of course, in the course of responding to a comment, snarkiness is approved, but I don't think I have to paint you a picture to understand what I mean.
Hash,
You'll have to do more than simply disagreeing with my perspective. If you insist the Israelis are some malevolent force, you'll need to provide some kind of support, like a link or something. Accusing me of being some sheep of some perceived neocon plot or propaganda is lame, especially considering I don't believe in the "neocon" conspiracies you like to throw around. Again, such things are worthless without support and you never seem to offer any. You've lived with the Jews enough to know their true aim? Sez you. Not good enough.
The Lebanon situation was also a matter of retaliation to Hezbollah actions. They, too, are famous for lying about their suffering and I think it is YOU who is drinking the Koolaid.
I'd also like to see some evidence to support claims that Jews are controlling American gov, military, economy, or anything else here. So nice that you have such a crappy opinion of your own people as to think that our leaders are just sheep for some foreign nation. Quite doubtful.
You don't "approve"? Then delete it. No need to go all Church Lady-ish.
But Mark stalked me on that issue -- his pronouncements on the state of my soul are still up here,
http://godswaymyway.blogspot.com/
and it IS in the broad context of this discussion. I think people need to know that about Mark before they start to take him too seriously.
Timley story in today's NYT:
Not all evangelicals are anti-Palestinian:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/
us/29evangelical.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
I left this response to ER's comment at Mark's blog over there, and it captures what I want to say so clearly (and, mercifully, briefly) that I felt led to copy it over here.
(erudite redneck)
The UCC "bouncer" TV ad caused me, a Texas dancehall bouncer at one time, to repent of my arrogance and cultural hatred of homosexuals, which is not to say I personally approve of homosexuality, but that's not the point; the point is simply refuse, literally or rhetorically, to stand in the way of anyone who tries to come to Jesus.
hashfanatic said...
Sorry, my post got truncated.
ER, your above statement leads me to believe there could be a Christian community, that has Christ living on the inside of its members, that understands that God is holding the Gates of Heaven open to Christians while folks like Mark seem obsessed with slamming them shut.
Thanks for reminding me who "the real Christians" are most likely to be, ER.
"If you insist the Israelis are some malevolent force, you'll need to provide some kind of support, like a link or something."
No, because the information I've related is widely available on mainstream AND alternative news sources on the internet, and I am led to believe that I AND the information will simply be denounced as commie, lib, raghead loving, Jew hating, apostate, America hating, cheese-eating surrender monkey, and I'm not convinced that its worthwhile to set myself up for that.
There are certain subjects in life that most folks simply aren't open to remaining teachable about. Usually, it either takes personal experience with the parties involved, a total shock to the system, like a cold slap to the face with an ice-cold washrag, a buildup over time of suspicious, questionable circumstances one might not have deemed particularly noteworthy on their own, or a cataclysmic, life-changing catastrophe, to have their awareness heightened and move beyond the comfort zone of what one's own cultural conceptions, norms, and dogma affirm.
And, with all due respect, Marshall, I'm not convinced you fit into any one of those categories (and I'm not saying that with malice, just as point of fact).
After all the comment you made about your being a spirit filled "christian", then the rest of your comments......I am left wondering what spirit. This in reference to hash.
Hash, I'm convinced that some, outside the gates, are trying to slam them shut, thereby trapping not only others but THEMSELVES outside!
Great Keith Green lyrics:
"Close the doors, there're just not coming.
"We sent the invitations out a long, long, long time ago.
"We're still gonna have a wedding feast,
"Big enough to beat them all.
"The greatest people in the world just wouldn't come,
"So now we'll just have to invite the small. ..."
--from "Song to My Parents"
Mom2, is it possible for you to engage people's ideas without being personally insulting to them as people? If so, please demonstrate it. I mean, I do it sometimes in anger and frustration, or for specific reasons. It seems to be your fallback position.
Sigh. I really don't attribute your insults to malice, but to garden-variety self-righteousness and a general inability to communicate effectively. Oh, and the false notion that God and God's Spirit can be quantified, and identified in others based on their political views. Which is idolatry.
"...and I am led to believe that I AND the information will simply be denounced as commie, lib, raghead loving, Jew hating, apostate, America hating, cheese-eating surrender monkey, and I'm not convinced that its worthwhile to set myself up for that."
So what you're saying then, is that you're cool with people assuming all that about you, or that you're just some bloviating fool because you refuse to support anything you say? Or perhaps you're concerned that perhaps your info can "be denounced as commie, lib, raghead loving, Jew hating, apostate, America hating, cheese-eating surrender monkey," because it really is all those things. Try this: let us be the judge. If nothing else, then the ball is in our court to supply counters to your links or concede on some level until then. You can at least feel, in the meantime, that perhaps you've made a difference and then take some pride in that. What I can say is that there have been enough false reports in support of the Muslim extremists and "not-really-pro-Israeli" people that such stories are indeed suspect until credible people have thoroughly checked out the stories. Currently, the New Republic has been publishing stories from some alleged Iraq war vet that is now being exposed as crap. Michelle Malkin and others have exposed false reporting from Lebanon in Rueters.
But if a story or link is true, there won't be any credible dismissals of the stories by conservatives that I pay attention to, unless adding pertinant and until then, overlooked details is considered dismissive.
ER,
No. I don't approve. Call me church lady if you think it's clever, but as do you, I intend to run my blog in my own way. You have not given enough info to inform anyone of what your problem with Mark may be. Here's an idea: invite anyone who might care about your spat with Mark to visit your blog where you can rag on his traditional Christian views with abandon. Don't do it here. If you have a problem with something he says here, respond to that comment specifically and spare me you petty sniping. I happen to have no problem with Mark's general theology as you might imagine. All are allowed to express their opinions here, as long as they are about the topic being discussed, or to counter a comment posted. You're free to say anything about me, but not my guests, and that goes for everyone.
Now, back to the topic....
I just want to re-iterate that I don't believe one can support the notion that there is any equivalent terrorist level behavior by the Israelis. I know there have been reports of such, only to find later that all the details weren't originally put forth. An example is the bulldozing of Palestinian homes. This wasn't, as was originally reported, simply to f**k with the Palestinians, but had a purpose that sprang from Palestinian activity. In one case, it may have been the home of a specific terrorist being sought, or it may have been a place to store weapons for use against Israel (I'm going from memory here). I've simply never heard of a situation where there has been random and indiscriminate violence perptrated by the Israeli military against Palies without there having been some provocation. What we basically have now is a situation whereby if the average Palestinian would at the very least begin to push their leaders for a different strategy, we'd see violence drop. But the people there seem to continually buy into the Fatah and Hamas propaganda regarding Israel and maintain their hatred. Thus, they'll never rise above their current station, because Israel is too good at dealing with their sorry asses.
Dude, MA. You idea of "running" a blog is cute. There's a toggle: It's "on" and wide open,or it's controlled by the whim of the blogger. Do as you wish. :-)
But the problem is this: If I think that a point is within the context of a thread, and you don't, and you delete it, then you're deleting it because you disagree with it -- and that's fine, too.
My "spat" is part of an ongoing discussion over what it means to be a Christian, and Christianity is part and parcel of what this country should do about Israel and its relationships with others, and what we as individual Christian Americans, should think about the issues and the people involved, which is what this thread is about. I'm not sure what Mark's theology is. It's his doctrine, which drifves anyone's thoughts about how to live out the Christian faith, that are at issue.
Further, Mark himself opened the door with a reckless assertion about Hash's ideas about God:
"I must assume by your name that your God is a mind altering drug."
And by intimating that Hash probably isn't a "real" Christian, as Mark often does with anyone he disagrees with on anything:
"And yet you refer to Jesus as your Savior, and tell everyone here that you are a Christian."
So, dude: Do what you will. But I didn't attack Mark and my comments are germane to the broad scope of this thread.
I am sure I do my share of finger pointing, but I am not in the habit of being a belligerent person - I just get tired of the foul mouthed ones never being able to take any counter attacks.
What it amounts to is "everyone", me included needs to look inward more and at the other person less.
As for hash's beliefs, I have been a Christian for almost 60 years and his beliefs are foreign to me and I really have no desire to conform to the culture to fit anyone's wishes.
Speaking at the United Nations Security Council, June 6, 1967, Israeli foreign minister Abba Eban, had this to say... some here might recognize this excerpt...
"The first of these principles surely must be the acceptance of Israel's statehood and the total elimination of the fiction of its non-existence. It would seem to me that after 3,000 years the time has arrived to accept Israel's nationhood as a fact, for here is the only State in the international community which has the same territory, speaks the same language and upholds the same faith as it did 3,000 years ago... How grotesque would be an international community which found room for 122 sovereign units and which did not acknowledge the sovereignty of that people which had given nationhood its deepest significance and its most enduring grace..."
Perhaps the greatest fiction is that of the Palestinian people. Palestine was simply a name the Romans tacked onto the region in an attempt to obliterated the name Israel from the world-mind. There was a Philistia, philistines... but no Palestine, and certainly no Palestinian people, there were Arabs.
I know, I know... this is outrageous! But consider: What identifiable characteristic of culture or language or custom distinguishes the Palestinian people from the rest of the Arab nations? Palestinians are Arabs, they speak Arabic, their culture is virtually identical to that of the Saudis, the Syrians, the Jordanians, Iraqis, Kuwaitis...
There was no Palestinian people prior to World War I... only Arabs... Muslims.
And to say Israel had no claim on the land is ludicrous. Jews have always lived in the land we now call Israel. There were Jews there 100, 200, 500, 1000, 1500 years ago. There have always been Jews on the land.
Zionists? Zionism? Just words to blacken further the reputation of the hated Jew. Jews belong in Israel today every bit as much as they've ALWAYS belonged on the land God gave them.
I know I'm late to the discussion...
Somewhere up the line it was stated that Israel should withdraw to pre-1967 lines... Well, I would ask, which lines? There have been several lines and borders drawn out for Israel. Why don't we go back to the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement, which gave Israel ALL of the West Bank in addition to the EAST BANK and a sliver of what is now Jordan as well as 2/3 of the Golan Heights? Let's go to those lines.
The Faisal-Weizmann Agreement, by the way, was in 1919. The British Empire actually promised much much more to Israel... we could go to those lines.
Elashley claims that Zionism is a smear term. That shows profound ignorance of the fact that the Zionist movement is historical, had and still has a dedicated following, a core set of beliefs, and was rewarded after the Second World War by British promises to fulfill the Balfour Declaration of the 1920's that the Brits would support the return of the Jewish people to Palestine.
The idea that "there have always been Jews" in Palestine is neither here nor there. Of course there have been. Hell, when Europeans landed in India in the 15th century, there were thriving Jewish communities there. The issue isn't the presence or absence of the Jewish people in Palestine. The issue is also not a historically questionable Biblical claim that "God gave them this land". God also took it away from them, according to the Bible, when Babylon sacked Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and took the people in to exile. If you don't believe me, read Lamentations. Late 1st century and early 2nd century Jewish thinkers also wrestled with two crushed rebellions against Rome and what they meant, and settled on the type of accommodation-in-exile that existed until European Jews in the 19th century started to agitate for escape from the suffocation of European anti-Semitism.
None of this has anything to do, however, with how to unravel the Gordian Knot of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. To my mind, trying to figure out who is more to blame, who has done more violence to the other, who shot first, who targets civilians - all of that is also a distraction, because it keeps the grievances alive. When Yitzak Rabin was assassinated, I called my mother and wondered aloud, "Why?" Her answer has stuck with me: "Because some people benefit from war and death." We need to recognize that; there are people on both sides who profit, in terms of political power and influence, from continued strife. Robbing them of the currency of power is the only way to end the conflict. Appealing to scripture serves no good purpose whatsoever. Appealing to questions of "who started it" serves no purpose. Only recognizing the legitimate claims of both sides, and forcing accommodations to compromise will work. Jimmy Carter managed to do it with Sadat and Begin. Bill Clinton almost did it with Olmert and Arafat. Carter's success, and the success of the Oslo framework, shows what is possible, and that it is possible. We need to remember we are dealing with human beings here, not pawns in some geopolitical, or theological, game here. If we can do that, we are already well down the road to accomplishing something.
Mom2!
"What it amounts to is 'everyone,' me included needs to look inward more and at the other person less."
OMG. I could not disagree less!
We are commanded to love, look at, consider, ponder, pray for, and do good toward who? Not ourselves! But the other.
MA, upon further reflection, perhaps I did slap Mark around a wee bit for reasons having nothing apparently to do with this thread; BUT, it was, honestly, to do with things that have to do with understanding underlying assumptions about Mark's words, which do have to do with any thread that Mark engages. I meant it that way in any case. No thought lives in a vacuum.
Geoffrey: Human beans. Absolutely. Amen. What about the Christians in Palestine???
BTW: Going back to John Hagee and the CUFI: Hagee, himself, professes to believe that Jews are covered by Grace -- that is, they need not "accept Jesus." Does anyone thing that most of the rank-and-file folks who sign up with CUFI think the same? I don't.
And, um, Mom2: What "foul mouth" are you talking about?? I don't think there's a cuss word in this thread!
No thought lives in a vacuum.>
ER, that is a true statement and will you allow me the same privilege? I read blogs all over the place and a lot of thoughts are from something that I read of the same individuals on other blogs. My definition of foul mouths involves more than curse words also; making extremely provocative accusations against others without factual proof or documentation is profaning them.
1. Mom2. I mwant I could not disagree MORE.
2., re: your definition of "profane" -- OK, as long as I get to spin the accepted definitions of words to suite my own ideas, too, you got a deal!
Mom2, should I not be agitated over what folks like you are trying to do to the world, In Jesus' Name?
The amount of control that Israel has over the US government and our policies is positively TERRIFYING.
The Rapture is not an exit strategy.
hashfanatic, You have no reason to fear me. I'm just an ordinary citizen with no clout, but I have been in church all my life and even before, as my parents were there when I was in the womb. Your views regarding Israel have so little accuracy and your views of what the Bible says are so flawed. I'm sure you are sincere and think you are right, but one can be sincerely wrong and make some terrible mistakes. Marshall, Mark and Elashley have stated my position so much better than I could have done.
Whether you realize it or not, there is a lot of anger toward Israel displayed by your comments and I know that God even showed compassion to Sarah's handmaiden, but His promise was to Abraham and Sarah's seed. I believe it when He said that he would bless those who bless Abraham's descendants. If we turn against Israel, we will find out that His Word is true.
But Abraham was also the father of Ishmael. True Scriptural fact. If Abraham is the Father of Nations, well, what do we do with that?
The promise was to Abraham and Sarah. Sarah messed things up when she gave her handmaiden to Abraham and as a living, breathing human who has trouble with waiting......would we have done any better?
"God also took it away from them, according to the Bible, when Babylon sacked Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and took the people in to exile."
A matter of interpretation. God didn't take the land away from His chosen people... He took His people away from the land. God made promises... gave the Israelites the land without condition. Read Genesis 13:15-17
"For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee." [emphasis mine]
God has never rescinded that promise.
----
What we do about it, ER, is look at what the Bible has to say about to whom God's blessings were passed down. Isaac, the child of promise? or Ishmael, the child of the flesh.
As to Ishmael, this is the promise God made to him: Genesis 21:17-18
"And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation."
And the descendants of Ishmael ARE a great nation. Something else God had to say about Ishmael that has also been very true of the descendants of Ishmael: Genesis 16:12
"And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."
God has kept His word in this regard, therefore it's fair to say He has kept His word in regard to His promise to Abraham... "and to thy seed for ever"
ER,
I know you've reconsidered a bit, but I just want to clarify:
First off, everything about me is "cute". Can't help it. Just is.
Secondly,
"There's a toggle: It's "on" and wide open,or it's controlled by the whim of the blogger." That mine is wide open assumes a certain degree of maturity and respectfulness by all participants, with the exception of me, of course, since even my most snarky moments are still, ah, cute. But I'm the only one wearing a "kick me" sign, not any of my guests. Keep in mind, however, that I kick back.
Now, let the good times proceed!
"First off, everything about me is "cute". Can't help it. Just is."
I agree.
You're our widdle widdle bunny wabbit! :)
That would be "cute" in a manly way.
I'm back - did I miss anything?
Oh.
There are really only two religious philosophies in the world:
1.God is God.
2 Man is God.
One of those two philosophies is correct.
Whenever I am faced with the decision to believe God or to believe man, I choose to believe God.
When a mortal man says something that is incompatible with what God says, mortal man, not God, is wrong.
Mark, on your two religious philosophies - what about woman? Or don't you have an opinion?
hash,
I'm a little curious if your convictions regarding the Palestinian claims to their "rightful" territories now occupied by the Israelis are as deep when dealing with the territory acquired by the United States during the Mexican-American War era?
Michael Medved has a column at Townhall.com that speaks to the perceptions toward Israel and the U.S. that includes some history of which Hash and Geoff may be unaware. Medved spoke of the period during the '20s and '30s wherein the Palestinians engaged in rioting, with one instance costing over 400 Jewish lives. The point here is that Israel was not even a state, and the head Palie was already rubbing elbows with Hitler and spreading crap about the Jews. What it means to me is that the underlying problems in the ongoing Arab-Israeli conflict is the rabid hatred toward all things Jewish. It has nothing to do with land, especially considering all the land that has been returned by Israel in their bid for peace as well as all the land and other stuff offered to Arafat who refused because the Israelis said "No" to several million Palies moving in under some BS right of return. This further supports my position that the Israelis are good to go.
First of all, I am more than aware that certain elements of the Palestinians flirted with the Nazis. So what? So did Charles Lindbergh. That is about as relevant to the current situation as the Israeli occupation of Suez in 1956 (which the US, in a rare moment of sanity, opposed).
I will say it again. The issue is not just land, but resources. The issue is also land because the Palestinians were forced from their homes at gunpoint in 1948, and their property confiscated without any recompense. The issue is about the fundamental dehumanization and belittling of the concerns of other people, especially by Americans who have no idea the horrors they live under - a rootless, stateless people who have no international benefactors, no diplomatic or material support, and whose problems are made worse by corrupt, myopic local politicians.
Israel isn't "good to go". Israel has a long way before it's "good to go".
"The issue is about the fundamental dehumanization and belittling of the concerns of other people, especially by Americans who have no idea the horrors they live under - a rootless, stateless people who have no international benefactors, no diplomatic or material support, and whose problems are made worse by corrupt, myopic local politicians."
Nonsense. As far as benefactors, we have, as I've stated, poured tons of cash on these people until they voted in a terrorist organization as their leaders, and we're still considering sending aid now. Globally, the Palies are getting quite a bit of support as we commonly see the UN treat Israel as if THEY are the people indiscriminately lobbing mortars and missles upon their neighbors. And they are far more "dehumanized" by their own corrupt leadership than by anyone else. How "dehumanizing" is it to teach your young that another people are animals worthy only of extinction. Uh uh. I don't buy into all that poor Palie nonsense. This is definitely a situation where they've brought upon themselves most, if not all, of their suffering. And even if that's not entirely true, there's still the little matter of them being murderous scum who live to see Israel wiped out. When they can prove convincingly that they've abandoned that attitude, then perhaps their "plight" will provoke sympathy. But you know what? If they forsake that attitude, their plight will have come to an end and they will gain that which they seek without anyone viewing them as the scum they insist on being.
Marshall, you should read Richard Rubenstein and Marc Ellis, two Jewish thinkers who have emphasized again and again the violence and degradation of the Palestinians at the hands of Israel. Rubenstein has specifically addressed the issue of statelessness and its impact upon the perceptions and actions taken toward those who are not under any legal regime recognized by others.
To complain about the Palestinian elections shows that we do not understand democracy. We complained and complained about the corruption of Fatah, and insisted on competitive elections; the only viable alternative to Fatah, however, was Hamas, and they offered the Palestinians something that Fatah could not - the ability to stand up to Israel. Countries do silly things when they're democracy, like elect leaders and parties that damage them internationally . . .
Calling the "Palies" is demeaning as far as I am concerned.
"Marshall, you should read Richard Rubenstein and Marc Ellis, two Jewish thinkers who have emphasized again and again the violence and degradation of the Palestinians at the hands of Israel."
Geoffrey, the neocons and Christian Zionists don't consider those guys to be "real Jews".
Sad, but true.
Geoff,
I have no doubt that there are Jews whose hearts bleed profusely for the Palestinians. So what? We have Americans whose thought processes are ass-backwards as well. It just makes them wrong. Can they list a few incidents for which the average Israeli wouldn't be proud? Most likely so. Means nothing more than the overwrought handwringing over Abu Graib. Aberrations are just that and not indicative of a national attitude.
On the Palie side, however, they elect one scumbag group to lead them or another, but they elect scumbags. Why does this happen? Because the scumbags control the wealth and keep their own people down. They continue to remind them just how inhuman and worthy of death and destruction the Israeli people are. So until some Palie gets some sack and works to reverse this travesty of a national character, the Palies can go f**k themselves. They murder civilians. They teach their kids that murdering civilians is a holy thing to do. They are proud of their kids when they blow their own sorry asses up, particularly when they murder Jews in the process. They've been doing this for about 1400 years. I do not blame the Jews for fighting back, for fighting back with extreme prejudice, for even fighting back in a manner that threatens those who are merely trying to live life. At some point, the average guy has to stand up, either with other average guys or alone, and put an end to the vicious cycle. In the meantime, the Israelis need to protect themselves from assholes that surround them. God bless them and more power to them. They have their hands full. The Palies have their pants full and it seems to be the way they like it. Anyone who sincerely wants to see peace in the region needs to turn their attention to the murderous scumbags causing all the trouble, not the Israelis who are merely trying to protect themselves.
Hash,
I don't know what you mean by "neocon" and "Christian Zionists" since you throw such terms around like so much popcorn. But we are aware of who is who, and being a Jew who defends murderers is simply a Jew with a warped sense of morality. We have those in this country, too. We call them "leftists" and "liberals". They call themselves "progressives".
I don't know what you mean by "neocon" and "Christian Zionists"...
Well, in your case, I would define "neocon" as one who subscribes to a particular political ideology that happens to place Israel's interests over that of America and Americans.
Christianity and Judaism are 100% compatible, so a Christian Zionist (one who supports the modern-day state of Israel, while purporting to be a Bible-believing Christian) is actually a fraud who has made a choice to relinquish their Christian witness, for God referred to Jews in Scripture to WARN Christians of their treacherous ways, not to assist the Jews of the modern age in their perfidy.
If Jesus walked the earth today, you would indeed be obligated to smile in his face and stab him in the back!
"But we are aware of who is who, and being a Jew who defends murderers is simply a Jew with a warped sense of morality."
That's not for you to judge. You lost that right, when you chose Israel's interests over your own country's.
Did you giggle when an Israeli tractor ran over Rachel Corrie, an American?
Are you happy when Bush sends more weaponry and defense systems to the Israelis, without even asking them to pay?
"We have those in this country, too."
What country are you in?
"We call them "leftists" and "liberals". They call themselves "progressives"."
And most of them are the true Americans, who believe in truth, justice, and liberty.
Sadly, you've found a way to ally yourself with a political ideology that wraps globalism, imperialism, corporatism, and fascist tendencies into an apocalyptic package, and twisted Biblical truths and false teachings, only to be manipulated by Satan in the process.
And it should frighten Americans far more that you are in our midst, ridden by a spirit of evil, than any "Islamofascist" puppet.
Does that sufficiently answer your question?
Oh yeah, Hash. It answers that and so much more about you. I repeat. Seek counseling. I don't know where you discerned such, but I never said anything about putting Israel's interests over American interests. But your support for a murderous group of 7th century scumbags shows where YOUR interests lie, and they don't lie with America's if you insist on supporting the enemies of our allies.
You make a lot of leaps of judgement in your last post, not the least of which is what I would do if Christ walked the earth now. Considering He came for the sake of God's Chosen People, I'm sure He'd have no problem with me defending them against those who would kill Israel's civilians just because they're Jews. You'd be hard pressed to prove otherwise. Loving one's enemies does not mean allowing them to perpetuate atrocities upon your people.
If I'm not mistaken, you've made the statement in the past that Christianity and Judaism are 100% "INcompatable", is that not correct? It makes the rest of the paragraph more consistent. But it's not exactly true and shows your lack of knowledge of either religion.
I maintain my "right" to "judge" whomever I please based on public expressions and actions. YOU have little to do with what MY rights in this area are, nor have you the competence to determine when I can or cannot express MYself.
I did not "giggle" when Corie was run over, but there is a poetic justice regarding one who seeks to defend the wrong side against a machine ten times her size. She was an idiot for her choice of allies and an even bigger idiot for her choice of methods, which got her killed. She has her own stupidity to thank for it. It is even more stupid if she believe, as you do, in Israeli "treachery". What kind of buffoon takes such chances with a people for whom she holds such views? BTW, when are YOU planning on standing in front of a bulldozer? She was stupid, but she had the balls to act on her beliefs.
"And most of them are the true Americans, who believe in truth, justice, and liberty."
It is their perception of those things and how they choose to manifest it and attain them where I have a major problem. The liberal idea of truth is ambiguous and purposely so, their notion of justice and liberty is equally skewed and not granted to all. Not to mention how poorly it all matches the beliefs of those who founded this country.
Sadly, you've found a way to align yourself with murderers, liars, and the worst of our species. It frightens me that people like you vote. You live in a parallel universe that bears no resemblance to the realities of this one. Get a clue.
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