Monday, August 10, 2009
New Addition
I've finally gotten around to adding Craig's blog, "John Shuck Made Me Do This". I've been meaning to for some time and never did. There you will find the ongoing debate between Dan and Bubba. You will also find a few more recent postings that look interesting, though I've only given them a cursory look thus far. Check him out.
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3 comments:
Thanks Marshall
If anyone is interested, here is a direct link to the dialogue between Dan and me.
It's been quiet in terms of substance for over two weeks, but because the thread is almost completely limited to comments from the two of us, it can "hibernate" indefinitely. I do hope it resumes soon, but what's already been written is quite interesting.
What's most interesting is that, for all his repeated claims to love and respect the Bible's teachings, the details of Dan's beliefs deviate from the Bible even more significantly than I ever imagined.
Having asked Dan for a list of the Bible's essential truths and providing my own answer to this question, I wrote the following in response to Dan's answer:
"You mention many earthly aspects of Christian life, including living simply and peacefully, but I don't see much about those particular activities that are uniquely Christian: prayer, Bible study, baptism, communion, and evangelism."
His reply?
"I would include those (at least some of which are not what I would call essential biblical teachings) under the broader Biblical essential teaching of joining in God's community and following in Jesus' steps." (emphasis mine}
Of prayer, Bible study, baptism, communion, and evangelism, which does he NOT consider to be essential biblical teachings? I've repeatedly asked this question and have yet to receive an answer, but I can't imagine any answer that would be evidence of an actual respect for what the Bible teaches.
I also wrote:
"Finally, you write about Christ's coming, but I see absolutely nothing about Christ's promised return."
Dan's reply included this cryptic claim:
"Yes, Jesus is coming again. Jesus is coming again all the time. Jesus is outside my door today in the face of the least of these (at least that's what Jesus says).
"I'm not much into 'end times' stuff. The Bible is quite clear that we don't know what tomorrow may bring."
The Bible is quite clear that Christ is returning; Christ Himself is quite clear about the same subject, but Dan doesn't affirm the broad, clear teachings about eschatology even if there are understandable disagreements about how to interpret the details.
I would have not guessed that Dan rejects even these teachings of the Bible, and I'm still quite surprised by these new revelations of what he really believes. I shouldn't be surprised, as it's long since been evident that his stated esteem for the Bible's teachings doesn't actually imply a correspondence between what the Bible teaches and what he believes.
The Bible is clear and emphatic that Jesus Christ died for our sins, that He rose from grave bodily and historically, and that He will return as the divine Judge.
It's not clear that Dan believes ANY of these central claims and believes that these claims are essential doctrines.
I appreciate your patience. I've been very busy and have had a hard time finding time for this discussion. I'll continue as much as time allows.
Bubba mentioned this exchange between the two of us, with Bubba saying...
"You mention many earthly aspects of Christian life, including living simply and peacefully, but I don't see much about those particular activities that are uniquely Christian: prayer, Bible study, baptism, communion, and evangelism."
And me replying...
"I would include those (at least some of which are not what I would call essential biblical teachings) under the broader Biblical essential teaching of joining in God's community and following in Jesus' steps."
Allow me to clarify. Since Bubba brought it up here, I'll answer here and over at Craig's, where I'll continue the conversation as I have time (I won't try to continue any conversation here, since I'm busy enough as it is).
1. To be clear: The conversation Bubba and I are in is about what IS and ISN'T in the Bible, not about Christian doctrine, per se. For instance, I think the Trinity is something that can be extracted from the Bible as a reasonable conclusion, but it is not in the Bible, and certainly not any suggestion of a belief in a triune God as a prerequesite for following Christ or as an "essential," as far as what the Bible has to say. We're just talking about what the Bible does and does not say.
2. To be clear, all of these actions are mentioned in the Bible, in some form or the other.
3. When I suggested that not all of these are "essential biblical teachings," what I was trying to get at, I believe, was that these actions as formal policy/rituals of church and as we understand them generally today are not essential biblical teachings.
4. The one that is most obvious to me is what we call Communion or Lord's Supper. I don't believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus was implementing a "sacrament" or ritual that the church should observe with that. They were gathered to eat and Jesus said, "as often as you do this (ie, break bread together in your meals or share wine/drink together) recall me and my life and death." That is, I don't think the Bible supports the notion that Jesus was implementing a church-service ritual to be called "Communion," in which people would artificially bring out little wafers and cups of grape juice and symbolically recall Jesus life and death and resurrection. That specifically is what I am speaking of.
5. I do agree that the Bible teaches that praying is a good and healthy thing and a biblical notion, that it's taken as a given ("when you pray..."). I agree that studying scriptures to be approved, to be educated and enlightened, that this is a biblical notion. I agree that baptism is a ritual that is biblically supported. I believe that sharing the Good News and, as we're going out in the world, making disciples, that THESE are biblical notions. I question what evangelism has come to mean in at least many evangelical circles - going door to door and getting people to say the "sinner's prayer," many of our revival services, etc - but in the sense that we are to share the good news as Jesus shared it, in THAT sense of evangelism, yes, it is a biblical notion.
Does that help clarify? I think perhaps you were over-reacting to something I said, perhaps poorly. I would also point out again that I don't think those actions themselves are uniquely Christian at all. Most if not all religions pray, study their scripture and have some sort of evangelism, perhaps baptism and "communion" are uniquely Christian, though.
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