Saturday, September 19, 2026

Where Last Time The Truth Was Dismissed Without The Truth Being Mentioned

 It's simply amazing to me how a leftist can be shown the facts, given the evidence and yet still cling to that which ignores what has been proven.  I refer of course to my previous post, in which I present a selection of verses which proves as false the claim that the principle that we are each born with a sin nature is not Biblical.  Merely citing the verses I chose should have done the trick.  They clearly come from Scripture and speak to man's nature being sinful.  There's no doubt about that.  Nonetheless, the assertion that it does not remains as if no evidence of any kind was brought forth.  It's not that the evidence wasn't direct in proving that "sin nature" is a Biblical concept, it's that the very fact of it is too troubling to accept for some reason not explained or even worthy to make mention.  It's just that the whining that "sin nature" is not a Biblical teaching must be accepted for reasons also not explained (that it's allegedly not Biblical is not a reason...it's a premise which must be supported but never was).

Rather than giving something akin to a reason why any of the rest were not the evidence demanded to support the premise the "sin nature" is a Biblical teaching (one or two weak attempts notwithstanding), tons of keystrokes were wasted trying to refute the very words of Jesus Himself, wherein He states plainly and without caveat that there is no one good but God alone.  This is a truth with which I have no personal trouble.  It worries me not.  And it was lost that the distinction is not at all a nuanced one to grasp:

First is the truth claim itself.  It was stated by Jesus directly, thus confirming He meant it to be taken as given.  If this is not so, there would've been some clarification given.  There's not even any hint that anyone who heard Him say this was dismayed by it in any way, nor did anyone even ask Jesus to explain what He meant by it.  Everything else in the story referred to the Rich Young Ruler's question, and clarification was asked about Jesus's response to what the RYR needed for salvation.  His response was the Good News we're told was intended for the materially poor primarily.  And it is there where the clarification for the truth stated in Mark 10:18 appears.  That is, why the statement was a statement of actual fact, and not hyperbole or metaphor or figurative speech.  More importantly, that actual fact relates to the rest of the list and why it was put together for the post.

What is it which makes God alone "good"?  Well, among all answers anyone might offer, primary of them, and that which is most relevant to the discussion of the previous post, is that He is without sin.  Sin is not in Him.  No solely human person can say that about themselves.  Jesus wasn't as much telling the Rich Young Dude to lighten his purse, but to follow Jesus, for Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father but through Jesus, because Jesus came to pay the price...the wages of our sin.  His shedding of His Blood is the payment, and it washes away our sin and we are then redeemed.  

It is sin which separates us from God.  Not the specific sinful acts we commit, but sin itself...the sin which is our nature due to sin entering God's "very good" Creation when Adam ate of the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  It infected everything which God had said was "very good" when He was finished creating creation.  All the warm and fluffy, feel-good, Kumbaya, Pollyanaish talk of "Grace" of my interlocutor of the last post ignores what was required for us to receive that Grace, and it required something being done to pay the wages of sin...death...just as atonement for God's Chosen People required death for sin, either the sinner's life, or the life of as most perfect a sacrificial animal as could be found.   But they were insufficient both because they were not truly perfectly unblemished animals, but because they only atoned for specific sins committed.  It did not atone for the sin nature.  That's where the final sacrifice took care of that business.

But it's all "human tradition", you see.  But it's the human Christian tradition of accepting the clear and unambiguous teaching of Scripture, which is the teaching of God revealed to us by a plain reading of Scripture, written to be easily understood.  It's not cryptic or mysterious with "layers of meaning" such that multiple meanings can exist which are contradictory, were any secondary meaning actually be presented with evidence which withstands scrutiny.  

And that, of course was the point of the last post.  "Sin nature" was asserted as no more than personal opinion rather than a Biblical doctrine.  Challenged to back up the counter claim, I gathered verses which attest to the doctrine and counter-challenged that if the verses don't mean what is conveyed by a plain reading of them, then what do they REALLY mean, and what evidence can be brought forth to support the claim.  I was presented with nothing more than weak attempts to provide verses which don't do what they were claimed to do.  To counter "there are none good but God alone", I was presented two or three times with the same passage wherein Jesus speaks of what "a good man" does as if it proves there are "good" people aside from God.  The problem, of course, was that the verse doesn't name any specific person, but simply describes what a good person would look like, very much like the passage which contains "ye shall know them by their fruit" describes what a follower of Christ would look like.  I also was given the marxist, liberation theology "tradition" of the "context" from which the Mark 10:18 verse was drawn being about "oppression" of the Pharisees, as well as indicting the Rich Young Ruler as one of them simply because he's wealthy as if no wealthy people in Scripture are regarded as righteous in the eyes of God.  

But here's what it's really all about:  Universalism.  Marxist, liberation theology universalism.  Everybody gets a trophy!  It's about rejecting the purpose of Jesus having walked among us.  It's about rejecting the crucifixion as no more than "Some people did something", not as a willing act of self-sacrifice by Jesus.  This makes His resurrection worthless, as it shows His power over death, which is what sin has done for us since it first entered Creation in Eden.  

Furthermore, since God took on the flesh to be the Perfect sacrifice necessary to wash away all sin of those who believe in Jesus, it's pretty clear He takes sin rather seriously.  It's not merely a "misstep" or "missing the mark" and it's not about any specific sinful act which required this great sacrifice to save us from His wrath and justice.  It was the great Passover.  The Blood of Christ adorns our doorframes so that the Angel of Death knows we are not condemned by our sin nature.   This truth is rejected by the vile response that it denotes a "petty godling" who acts with caprice and evil intent.  "The Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world" is just a catchy title.  It doesn't mean He would be sacrificed as a Penal Substitute for our Atonement.  That would be petty.  

The Black Knight fancies himself the victor!

89 comments:

Anonymous said...

First of all, unless it's defined pretty clearly, I find "biblical" to be a pretty useless term. There are all kinds of things that are found in the pages of the Bible. Finding something in the Bible does not make it Godly.

Slavery, rape, slaughterering children, executing people for relatively minor sins: these are all found in the pages of the Bible and worse. Thus those notions are biblical in the sense that they can be found in the pages of the Bible and some people have even used this "biblical evidence" to say it's godly.

I'm much less interested in whether or not something is so-called "biblical" and more interested in whether it is good, rational, just, loving, and godly. Can we agree on that much?

Dan

Jesse Albrecht said...

Dan Trabue is a loser and a pawn of Satan, which is why he has no idea of the true Christian teachings and faith.

Dan Trabue said...

Am I also a doo-head and child-eater, Jesse? (rolls eyes - what are you, an eight-year old with god delusions and paranoia?)

Assuming you, Marshal, can acknowledge that not every ideal that one could (and some DO) find in the pages of the Bible is NOT necessarily GODLY or good or rational or recommended, let's deal with talking about ideas/theorie/hunches that are...

1. Reasonable
2. Good
3. Godly/moral/advisable.

After all, I literally think that allying with the poor and being wary of the rich IS reasonable and extremely biblical, as is welcoming the immigrants and refugees, and that the more modern/Dantean view of "hell" is exceedingly unbiblical.

So, with that said:

One can rightly and reasonably say that "SOME PEOPLE find support for the theory of a "sin nature" in the pages of the Bible," BUT is it a reasonable, good and Godly theory to promote? IS it objectively proven (it's not) and can you acknowledge it's NOT objectively proven, that it IS a human theory that some humans like you find to be "biblical" but you have not ever - no one has - objectively PROVEN this mythic "sin nature" in any substantive, measurable way?

THAT is the question I'm dealing with and have been dealing with on this topic as it relates to our conversations.

Marshal Art said...

September 20, 2026 at 8:56 AM

"First of all, unless it's defined pretty clearly, I find "biblical" to be a pretty useless term."

That's very interesting given you insistence that the doctrine of man's sin nature isn't Biblical. You say the same about the doctrine of PSA. So since you insist those aren't Biblical, for reasons which are less than what one would expect from someone who claims a reverence for "respectful, adult, good faith discourse", to now suggest the term has no value to you seems a more than a little disingenuous. It was your insistence that "sin nature" wasn't not Biblical and thus to say so requires "PROOF!". I provided sufficient evidence with the verses I listed in the last post that it is indeed Biblical...as in something we learn about the condition of mankind from Scripture.

"There are all kinds of things that are found in the pages of the Bible."

Here's where the disrespectful, childlike, bad faith discourse begins anew.

"Finding something in the Bible does not make it Godly."

The issue is what's "Biblical", not what's "Godly". We can cover what constitutes Godliness another time.

"Thus those notions are biblical in the sense that they can be found in the pages of the Bible..."

Of course that's not how any normal person would use the term "Biblical". Jesus rode a donkey. Is riding a donkey "Biblical" now? How absurd!

"I'm much less interested in whether or not something is so-called "biblical" and more interested in whether it is good, rational, just, loving, and godly. Can we agree on that much? "

You want me to agree with this lame dodge from addressing the challenge of the previous post...a post based on YOUR insistence the doctrine of our sin nature isn't "Biblical"??? You didn't think I was convinced you weren't up to the challenge your own challenge to me compelled?



Dan Trabue said...

Once again, Marshal, IF YOU want to insist that "Biblical=It's what God wants," then NO, that is NOT biblical. IF you want to say "Biblical = I read passages in the bible that convince me of X" YES, that could be biblical (if you're not a very savvy/mature biblical/textual reader).

So, by all means, clarify your position. ARE you saying, "I personally find words in the bible that convince me that this notion of a "sin nature" makes sense, TO ME"...? Are you saying that, with the theory of "blood atonement/PSA" - I find biblical texts that make me personally think that human theory is a reasonable theory..."?

Or are you saying that these are "biblical facts that are objectively proven as God's will..."?

Anonymous said...

Dan has kind of a point. Stan just wrote about the concept of prescriptive vs descriptive. One of my recent classes with a university OT professor revealed that about 90% of Torah law could not possibly be applied to non Jews (hence his suggestion that it is actually quite reasonable to attempt to obey Torah law as a Christian).

So, perhaps Bublical is not a precise enough term to be used.

Even a blind pig.

C

Anonymous said...

Dan,

Then loses the acorn, when he moves the standard of what he’s interested in/concerned about to a bunch vague, subjective terms which ultimately mean whatever he wants, Or they can mean everything, which makes them mean nothing.

C

Dan Trabue said...

Marshal...

Of course that's not how any normal person would use the term "Biblical". Jesus rode a donkey. Is riding a donkey "Biblical" now? How absurd!

And there's a line where Jesus said, "No one is good but God..." Does that mean that the theory that there are NO good humans is "biblical" now? HOW absurd!

Do you NOT get the point? You're stating it correctly when it comes to donkey riding but missing the point on "sin natures" and other absurd theories. YES, there are humans who find verses that make them personally think such theories, but it doesn't make it biblical, by YOUR OWN testimony regarding "donkey riding."

See?

(No, of course, not).

Marshal Art said...

September 20, 2026 at 3:57 PM

"Am I also a doo-head and child-eater, Jesse?"

You are a defender of abomination and infanticide. Think on that.

"what are you, an eight-year old with god delusions and paranoia?"

Wow! Really?? THAT'S your takeaway? Given what you do defend (see above), Jesse's description isn't totally inaccurate!

"Assuming you, Marshal, can acknowledge that not every ideal that one could (and some DO) find in the pages of the Bible is NOT necessarily GODLY or good or rational or recommended, let's deal with talking about ideas/theorie/hunches that are..."

"Ideal"?? Do you mean "idea"? At least the latter barely makes some kind of sense. Let's deal with the challenge from which you've fled. I've proven that "sin nature" is Biblical...as in, presented as a fact and one essential for understanding Christ's purpose on earth (and therefore "reasonable")...you're obliged to follow through on your own claim that it isn't, and my challenge gives you a path for doing so.

"After all, I literally think that allying with the poor and being wary of the rich IS reasonable and extremely biblical, as is welcoming the immigrants and refugees, and that the more modern/Dantean view of "hell" is exceedingly unbiblical."

Good for you, but wholly irrelevant and thus of no concern at present. "Sin nature" is the topic of the day, and you're still devoid of any way to pretend it isn't reality for each of us. Fleeing that challenge to defend your claim only compels me to remain affixed to it until you do what you demanded of me, which I satisfied by citing a list of verses which supported the truth you deny.

" One can rightly and reasonably say that "SOME PEOPLE find support for the theory of a "sin nature" in the pages of the Bible,""

But honest people honestly and accurately affirm the doctrine of our sin nature is a Biblical teaching, for which the verses alone which I listed stand in stark evidence.

"BUT is it a reasonable, good and Godly theory to promote?"

It's a Biblical fact, and it is reasonable, good and Godly to affirm Biblical fact.

"IS it objectively proven (it's not) and can you acknowledge it's NOT objectively proven, that it IS a human theory that some humans like you find to be "biblical" but you have not ever - no one has - objectively PROVEN this mythic "sin nature" in any substantive, measurable way?"

Here again you state as true that which is merely your premise and having stated your premise, you present your premise as proven fact. That's not how "respectful, adult, 'GOOD FAITH'" discourse works. It does not include repeated use of one of your favorite logical fallacies. The concept IS proven in the only way which matters: the Bible teaches it as the fact of mankind's nature, as my citations confirm.

"THAT is the question I'm dealing with and have been dealing with on this topic as it relates to our conversations."

Thanks for admitting you've been dodging the point of my post and the discussion which followed. But it seems you're making the laughable argument that because we can't measure one's sin nature, then one can't say that it's a fact we are each born with one despite the teaching of Scripture. So how does one measure the existence of the soul, or of the "heart" as the word is so often used in Scripture (as in Jeremiah 17:9)? How can you prove we have a mind? If this is the track on which your choo-choo runs, it's absurdly dishonest to promote it as "respectful, adult, 'GOOD FAITH'" arguments to make. We debate these issues on the agreed upon notion we're doing so as Christians. We can't "PROVE!" God exists, but I based all my arguments and positions on the presupposition that He does and Scripture describes all which relates to Him and His Grand Plan which requires an understanding of our sin nature. It's the very point you dodge.

Dan Trabue said...

Marshal:

since God took on the flesh to be the Perfect sacrifice necessary to wash away all sin of those who believe in Jesus, it's pretty clear He takes sin rather seriously

That IS a question, not a proven point. At best, it's a human theory. DID God "take on flesh to slaughter God's own Self so that God might forgiven humans because God wasn't willing or able to forgive outside of such a crazy action..."? That's a question. You can't just assume "the Bible says" that this is what God thinks and THEN presume, "Therefore, since I already said that "the Bible says," THEN we know it's right and the question is settled."

Circular reasoning. Begging the question. Logical fallacy.

Same for mythical "sin natures..." DO humans have what some have termed a "sin nature..."? And where is the proof and do we know it objectively? The rational person can't say, "Well, the objective proof is that there are some verses that, to me personally, I think they REALLY suggest that this is the case..." Again, a logical fallacy.

Same for others of your human theories. They ARE human theories, not proven points.

Marshal:

You want me to agree with this lame dodge from addressing the challenge of the previous post...a post based on YOUR insistence the doctrine of our sin nature isn't "Biblical"??? You didn't think I was convinced you weren't up to the challenge your own challenge to me compelled?

Clearly, you were not understanding what I was intending by "biblical," and so, I'm trying another way. I'm STARTING that by trying to find a very rational point on which we agree: That the point is NOT whether something is "biblical," but if it's rational, moral, Godly, just. So, let's just set aside the term biblical, which is confusing you so much, and deal with the actual points of disagreement.

IF you want me to acknowledge (again) that SOME HUMANS do indeed read biblical texts to conclude that they personally think that humans have something they call a "sin nature," or that "no human is good," I'm acknowledging that much. SOME humans DO indeed reach such conclusions from (poorly) reading the Bible. That's not in dispute and never has been (the point which you seem to miss - or at least one of them).

The question is: IS there such a thing as human "sin natures" famed in story and myth? IS it the case that there are no good human beings? And, if so, WHERE is the objective proof of such silly clearly false claims?

Understand?

Dan Trabue said...

Marshal, and THIS is where you are totally delusional:

It's a Biblical fact

It's literally NOT. Done.

The mythical "sin nature" is literally a THEORY that SOME HUMANS hold when the read a handful of verses that make them personally think, "hey, a 'sin nature' would explain that..." But THIS is where "biblical" loses its meaning and why I'm looking for a more definite set of terms to talk about your little human theory.

It's LITERALLY a fact that some people read a few biblical verses and conclude, "huh! must be a sin nature inherited from Adam, who must be a real historical character..." But "THERE IS A SIN NATURE IN HUMANS" is simply not a biblical "fact."

And understand this: Outside of questions like "Is there a biblical text where someone says 'no one is good but God?'" (which is factually answered with YES, such a text exists in the Bible!) there IS NOT SUCH THING AS A BIBLICAL "FACT." The Bible is a book, NOT a god to bow down to and heed. It's dumb. Unthinking. It's letters and pages, NOT AN INTELLIGENT THING with opinions and claims. It's just a book, man.

Can you acknowledge that simple reality?

Because once you acknowledge the obvious ("yes, of course, the bible is just a book - or a collection of writings - it has no opinions itself! D'uh!") THEN we can talk about the credibility or lack thereof of various human interpretations of biblical texts.

DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE BIBLE IS NOT A THINKING THING ISSUING OPINIONS TO HEED?

Dan Trabue said...

Craig, blindly ironically said:

when he moves the standard of what he’s interested in/concerned about to a bunch vague, subjective terms

By all means, Craig, King of Vague Nothingness, TELL me which "vague, subjective terms" you think I've offered and I can clarify.

But a vague, empty allegation, well, clearly that is so much diarrhetic bullshit. And IF you need me to clarify what I mean by that allegorical term/phrase, well, just ask.

You boys are funny, if nothing else.

Anonymous said...

Marshal...

"The concept IS proven in the only way which matters: the Bible teaches it as the fact of mankind's nature, as my citations confirm."

By all means then, objectively prove it. But you have to understand, sir, that you saying "here are some verses that I think mean it" is not objective proof. It's just you offering verses and your personal interpretation. That is objectively not objective proof. Do you understand that? Just that much. Do you understand that simple objective reality?

I think ultimately your problem is that you don't understand what is and isn't objective proof. I don't know how to help you with that.

Dan

Marshal Art said...

September 20, 2026 at 5:43 PM

"Once again, Marshal, IF YOU want to insist that "Biblical=It's what God wants," then NO, that is NOT biblical."

Once again, Dan. If YOU want to play pedantic, semantic games with this word, you're in the wrong place. It's just another cheap dodge so you don't have to defend the fact that you're challenge to me was met, and my responding challenge to you forced you to flee like a cockroach when the light went on. I said about the word what I needed to say and you dodged that as well. Here it is again:

Remember what you meant each time you've told me (or "us") that a concept we present (such as "sin nature" here) isn't Biblical. Why did you choose to use that word to disparage our position when you find it "to be a pretty useless term"? It certainly had meaning for you then! Or do you just use words you think are meaningless when you think you can profit by doing so? So how did YOU mean it when you used the ostensibly "useless" term? When you can man up enough to honestly present that definition, we can talk about what I mean when I use it.

Tell you what! I'll save us both some time and just state what you meant that the principle/concept/doctrine doesn't exist anywhere in Scripture, which you've also said ("It's just not in there!"). Clearly, as regards the doctrine of our sin nature, I've proven it is presented in Scripture and my limited list of citations are the evidence.

"So, by all means, clarify your position. ARE you saying, "I personally find words in the bible that convince me that this notion of a "sin nature" makes sense, TO ME"...? Are you saying that, with the theory of "blood atonement/PSA" - I find biblical texts that make me personally think that human theory is a reasonable theory..."?

Or are you saying that these are "biblical facts that are objectively proven as God's will..."?"


This willful, intentional distortion of my position is answered in the original post to which this post is a sequel. I'm saying, in response to your unsupported claim that "sin nature" "isn't Biblical", my citations prove it is, unless you can provide evidence-based arguments the verses don't mean what a plain reading of them clearly and unambiguously present. Do you need me to restate this another forty or fifty times?

Marshal Art said...

Then perhaps this wordsmith should have more wisely chosen which word to use to deny the existence of that which Scripture teaches.

Marshal Art said...

Fortunately, he doesn't need that acorn. He can simply take up the one offered in the previous post which he's ignored over the course of 200 comments.

Dan Trabue said...

If you won't answer rational, respectful questions, you lose right off the bat, son. Clarify or show yourself to be a coward who knows he's beaten but is too immature or cowardly to admit it.

Dan Trabue said...

And just to be even more clear - even when YOU boys aren't. I had ASKED A QUESTION...

Or are you saying that these are "biblical facts that are objectively proven as God's will..."?"

NOTE the question mark and the inquiring nature of the sentence, it is a question, not a claim. To which you responded with this nonsense...

This willful, intentional distortion of my position is answered in the original post to which this post is a sequel.

When someone ASKS a question "IS THIS WHAT YOU THINK?????????" It is a QUESTION, not a claim and certainly not a distortion.

You DO understand the concept of a Question, don't you?

How basic do I have to make things for you fellas to understand?

Frankly, I'm left with the reality that you all just don't understand the written word. WHICH would explain your pisspoor biblical "interpretation."

Marshal Art said...

September 20, 2026 at 6:35 PM

More deliberately disrespectful, childish, bad faith discourse from Dan follows:

"And there's a line where Jesus said, "No one is good but God..." Does that mean that the theory that there are NO good humans is "biblical" now? HOW absurd!"

This isn't even comparing an apple to something plant-based! You're actually trying to say that a line which describes Jesus acting (riding a donkey) is of the same "kind" as a line which describes Jesus saying something??? I thought you were arguing against the reality of mankind's sin nature! This is evidence of your own, it's so dishonest. It's insulting and true disrespect to think you can make such a lame attempt to disparage my position...which is Biblical truth. Moreover, you again pretend it's "theory" that Jesus stated fact that no one is good but God alone isn't an example of Biblical truth. "Riding a donkey" is something the Bible describes. "No one is good but God alone" is what the Bible reports is something Jesus said. Now it's YOU pretending that "riding a donkey" is presented as some moral truth, when Mark 10:18 is a truth claim of Jesus. Where's this vaunted "reasoning" power you claim is superior to ours that you can't see a difference between these two examples?

"YES, there are humans who find verses that make them personally think such theories, but it doesn't make it biblical, by YOUR OWN testimony regarding "donkey riding.""

And then there are sub-humans like you who don't even have the character to bother with putting in more effort to come up with better lies. And every time you refer to these proven doctrines as mere "theories", after so much evidence has been presented with which you've failed to rebut with the slightest bit of intelligence, you are lying again. "Sin nature" is not a "theory". I've demonstrated it's a Biblical teaching and you continue to run from the challenge to prove they aren't (which I get since it's not possible for you rebut this fact).

Donkey riding isn't a Biblical doctrine, Sub-human. "There is no one good but God alone" is. "Sin nature" is. PSA is.

What I "see" here, is that you prefer your lie to God's Truth as revealed to us in Scripture.

Marshal Art said...

September 20, 2026 at 6:47 PM

"That IS a question, not a proven point."

It's proven by the testimony of Scripture, and clearly so. The only real question is why do you continue posturing as a Christian and thus exploit the Name of my Lord and Savior, for quite clearly your equivocating on this point alone demonstrates that Scripture is no more the Charmin Bathroom Tissue do you.

Actual Christians work on the presupposition that God exists and that Scripture is a record of His interaction with His Creation, most specifically mankind. That Jesus is God in the flesh is not even a question among actual Christians because this fact is affirmed by those who knew Jesus when He walked the earth and died for even the likes of you so that you might live if you believe in Him. Evidently, you only pretend and every weak sauce attempt to avoid defending your self-serving position by daring to suggest nothing in Scripture is proven if it exposes your falseness absolutely confirms your falseness instead. It certainly proves "good faith" is just some weasel words to you, and you show none whatsoever here.

"Same for mythical "sin natures..." DO humans have what some have termed a "sin nature..."? And where is the proof and do we know it objectively?"

I gave you all the proof you need...or would need if you were at all an honest person and a real Christian...with my less than comprehensive list of citations, each of which speak directly to or of the doctrine of man's sin nature. Indeed, what best confirms them as such is your abject cowardice in avoiding the challenge of providing the "TRUE MEANING" of those verses a plain reading of them evidently isn't enough to convey, as well as evidence of the type you routinely insist is never met by me or Craig or anyone else when you demand it be provided to you. Clearly, if I'm misunderstanding these verses as badly as you need me to believe I am, how can it be that I still haven't been graced with the evidence-backed "TRUE MEANING" of ANY of them??

Instead, like a weaselly little sub-human, you think you have authority to dismiss whatever is presented as "not good enough for Dan Trabue" and the game is over. You think calling citing the verses which are clearly speaking of sin nature is somehow a "logical fallacy"???? No, Dan. It doesn't work that way. The only logical fallacy at play here is Dan Trabue insisting he's right and that insistence is therefore proof Dan Trabue is right. You were instructed to leave that shit at your Blog of Lies and Perversions.

Scripture IS proof of what Scripture teaches unless you can PROVE that my understanding of the verses I've cited is erroneous, which requires providing the "TRUE MEANING" of them with evidence from Scripture to back it up.

Marshal Art said...

"Clearly, you were not understanding what I was intending by "biblical," and so, I'm trying another way. I'm STARTING that by trying to find a very rational point on which we agree: That the point is NOT whether something is "biblical," but if it's rational, moral, Godly, just."

Yeah...you're weaseling away from defending the point with which YOU began...that "sin nature" isn't Biblical. What you're doing now is moving the goal posts. Hell, you're changing the freaking game, after YOU set the rules. I scored according to your rules and now, your objection having been proven absurdly false, you want to play tennis instead. But that ain't happening, Nancy. You don't get to back away saying I'm the one who doesn't understand what you meant by "not Biblical". You're not playing with some dumbass Jeff St. congregant here. Cut the crap and borrow a pair of testicles.

"IF you want me to acknowledge (again) that SOME HUMANS do indeed read biblical texts to conclude that they personally think that humans have something they call a "sin nature," or that "no human is good," I'm acknowledging that much. SOME humans DO indeed reach such conclusions from (poorly) reading the Bible. That's not in dispute and never has been (the point which you seem to miss - or at least one of them)."

The "POINT" was NEVER that "some" "humans" (what's with this "humans" shit?) conclude anything. THE POINT is that the Bible teaches that we are each born with a sin nature and that YOU said the Bible nowhere teaches that, despite my list of citations YOU were challenged to explain as if a clear reading of each of those verses means something other than what that plain reading conveys. You were to provide the "TRUE MEANING" with evidence in support of it for each cited verse. THAT is the point and remains the point. YOU have no authority to alter the terms of this challenge on the bullshit weaselly premise the word "Biblical" is confusing to me. Stop fucking around and be a man for a change. Pretend you're an actual Christian and act honorably, truthfully and graciously.

"The question is: IS there such a thing as human "sin natures" famed in story and myth? IS it the case that there are no good human beings? And, if so, WHERE is the objective proof of such silly clearly false claims?"

And still you lie like the reprobate you are, ignoring the objective proof supplied you in the previous post. Yes. That's "OBJECTIVE PROOF" because it's all found in Scripture speaking to these very things you dishonestly pretend are not Biblical truths.

Jesse Albrecht said...

If you’re genuinely asking whether you’re a ‘doo‑head and child‑eater,’ that’s less a question and more a confession that you’ve run out of adult vocabulary, and that your imagination is working overtime in all the wrong directions.

Marshal Art said...

Jesse, I must insist that you abide by my rule to keep your comments substantive and not mere personal attacks on my other visitors...even if it's Dan or his troll. That's MY job, and I'm very territorial about it. Thanks.

Marshal Art said...

To whom do you think you have right and authority to condescend here? Certainly not me, for you've not done even jack shit to prove I've been beaten in any way. You'd have to actually take up the challenge on the terms of the challenge before supposing you can declare any victory. And you have absolutely NOT done that.

Marshal Art said...

September 20, 2026 at 6:55 PM

"Marshal, and THIS is where you are totally delusional:"

"It's a Biblical fact"

"It's literally NOT. Done."

And you do it yet again....daring to declare something to be so implying it must be accepted as so because you so declared it so. Truly respectful, adult, good faith discourse doesn't work that way. You don't get to assert you're possessed of superior knowledge, intellect or anything else. You have to prove it and you've never done that in two decades. You just keep asserting and declaring and reject anything and everything which exposes you as a dumbshit. The fact that Scripture teaches, reports, chronicles or reveals....any term you prefer...that we are each born with a sin nature is a fact...a Biblical fact. You choosing to disagree with this concept you find personally distasteful doesn't mean it isn't a fact. THAT is what YOU have to prove. Here, you have to do it be providing the "TRUE MEANING" of JUST the verses I've cited which clearly and unambiguously state or refer to our sin nature. That's your only duty here.

"The mythical "sin nature" is literally a THEORY that SOME HUMANS hold when the read a handful of verses that make them personally think, "hey, a 'sin nature' would explain that..." But THIS is where "biblical" loses its meaning and why I'm looking for a more definite set of terms to talk about your little human theory."

Stop this wussy shit. The FACT of our sin nature is the result of HONEST people, including two thousand years of Biblical scholarship (a minimum which doesn't include the OT authors) who accurately present what Scripture itself clearly reveals without ambiguity or equivocation. Moreover, my use of the term "Biblical" is based on YOUR usage of it in suggesting that the doctrine "isn't Biblical" because it isn't in the Bible. But not only is it clearly in Scripture (both Testaments), it's often referenced as such, even going so far as to say "sinful nature(s)" on at LEAST one occasion. So that means it's "Biblical" in at least TWO ways: The opposite of what YOU claimed (that it's not in the Bible) and that it was factually taught as "being a 'thing'"!

"It's LITERALLY a fact that some people read a few biblical verses and conclude, "huh! must be a sin nature inherited from Adam, who must be a real historical character..." But "THERE IS A SIN NATURE IN HUMANS" is simply not a biblical "fact.""

Both of these things are in direct contradiction of what's been proven to be true already. This constant repetition of "It's LITERALLY a fact that some people read a few biblical verses and conclude" is a meaningless dodge. It doesn't stand as an alternative "TRUE MEANING" of any verse of Scripture. Each repetition is another lie. Don't waste my time repeating it again.

"And understand this: Outside of questions like "Is there a biblical text where someone says 'no one is good but God?'" (which is factually answered with YES, such a text exists in the Bible!) there IS NOT SUCH THING AS A BIBLICAL "FACT.""

Why? Because facts presented offend you? Because you don't like facts which conflict with your universalist liberation theology marxism? Boo-hoo. The term "Biblical fact" is as old as the Bible itself. Biblical fact refers to the truths and realities presented within the Scriptures. These facts are considered divinely inspired and reliable accounts of God's interactions with humanity. They refer to historical narratives, moral teachings and prophetic revelations. This is the formal understanding of the term. It is not new or uncommon in any way.

Marshal Art said...


"The Bible is a book, NOT a god to bow down to and heed. It's dumb. Unthinking. It's letters and pages, NOT AN INTELLIGENT THING with opinions and claims. It's just a book, man."

This is what for you passes as intelligent insight. More weasel words so you don't have to accept what you find personally distasteful. It's just a book with facts and it's a fact it speaks of man's sin nature at least as many times as the number of verses I cited in the last post. Verses waiting for you to clarify with their "TRUE MEANINGS" along with Scripture-based evidence to back it up.

"Can you acknowledge that simple reality?"

That's not reality, simple or otherwise. What is reality is that you're a coward who continues to dodge your obligation to defend your claim that "sin nature" is not a Biblical teaching, a Biblical fact of life, Biblical despite the several verses I cited which prove it is.

"Because once you acknowledge the obvious ("yes, of course, the bible is just a book - or a collection of writings - it has no opinions itself! D'uh!") THEN we can talk about the credibility or lack thereof of various human interpretations of biblical texts."

No, Nancy. One you acknowledge you can't pretend the verses I cited mean something other than what a plain reading of each of them clearly conveys (that we are each born with a sin nature), then you can pretend to have a shred of credibility. Frankly, you could prove THAT if you could prove those verses mean something else than what a plain reading conveys! Either way, you defend yourself as credible. Adding to the scores of existing nonsensical comments you've already had posted (because I don't delete even the dumbass repetition of stupidity and tap-dancing) only serves to show you have no credibility at all.

"DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE BIBLE IS NOT A THINKING THING ISSUING OPINIONS TO HEED?"

As the kids say these days, STFU! Stop pretending the Bible doesn't present us with facts and truths just because you don't like the facts and truths being discussed here. "DUHHH, DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE BIBLE IS NOT A THINKING THING...?" What a dumbass thing to say!

Marshal Art said...

Never mind that, Dan. Just present the "TRUE MEANINGS" of the verses I cited which prove "sin nature" is Biblical...a Biblical doctrine, principle, concept, teaching...with Scripture-based evidence to back it up. That's the only thing upon which your focus should be directed.

Marshal Art said...

September 20, 2026 at 7:38 PM

"By all means then, objectively prove it"

I did. And I'm not going to prove what I've proven just to see you again demand that I prove what I've proved to prove what I've proven. Borrow some big boy pants and do YOUR part, which is to "prove" that the verses I cited don't mean what a plain reading of each of them conveys...which is that we are each born with a sin nature. Two posts dedicated to this challenge which was the result of you forcing me to prove that "sin nature" is Biblical (because you said it wasn't Biblical). My verses prove that it is Biblical. You either concede the concept, doctrine, principle, teaching is Biblical or prove it isn't. And don't try the "can't prove a negative" crap because that's not what this is. This is you implying the verses mean something you refuse to present rather than what a plain reading of them conveys. I don't want to hear bullshit about "some people might think..." I want you to back up your claim or concede that mine is the accurate understanding of these incredibly easy to understand verses.

"But you have to understand, sir, that you saying "here are some verses that I think mean it" is not objective proof"

This is a lie, because I'm not saying "here are some verse I 'think' means sin nature. I'm saying unequivocally that that's EXACTLY what those verses are saying. I've no doubt whatsoever. There's no reason you've been able to supply which could possibly make me doubt they prove the doctrine of sin nature is Biblical and thus reality. The challenge from you was that "sin nature" is not Biblical...whatever you meant that word means each time you've used it.

"It's just you offering verses and your personal interpretation. That is objectively not objective proof. Do you understand that? Just that much. Do you understand that simple objective reality?"

It's just me offering proof that sin nature is Biblical because those verses are referring...most directly...to the existence of the sin nature in each of us. This is what objective proof looks like when you stop pretending you didn't make a specific challenge that it isn't Biblical. I don't need a spiritual X-ray machine to locate YOUR wildly active and totally domineering sin nature. I'm a Christian. A Christ-follower. I accept the teachings of the Scripture which clearly reveals to us Christian theology and teaching (which are Biblical facts and truths). I read what it says, so I know what's true. Only someone with an actual evidence-based argument can alter what I know to be true because I read Scripture without a universalist liberation theology marxism corrupting my understanding. I don't need to make things up. I leave that kinda crap to those like you.

"I think ultimately your problem is that you don't understand what is and isn't objective proof. I don't know how to help you with that."

I think ultimately your problem is that you think this means anything. I'm not interested in meeting your self-serving, undefined, ever fluid constantly changing as the situation dictates notion of "objective truth" (a weasel term for dodging your obligations). This is about YOU proving ANYTHING, but most specifically, that the verses I cited have a "TRUE MEANING" which isn't what a plain reading of the verses convey.


Marshal Art said...

September 20, 2026 at 8:29 PM

"And just to be even more clear - even when YOU boys aren't. I had ASKED A QUESTION..."

But you don't get to ask questions. You don't get to set terms. The challenge was crystal clear. I'll print it again from the previous post:

"So, if Mark 10:18 isn't contrasting a perfect, sinless God with man's imperfection by virtue of man's sin nature, then what does Jesus's statement, "No one is good" mean?"

"If it isn't speaking to our sin nature, what does it mean?"

"If this Psalm doesn't mean "sin nature", what does it mean?"

"If Romans 7:18 isn't affirming the concept of man's sin nature, then what does it mean?"

"It indicates ALL have a sin nature as a result. If this is NOT what verse 14 is saying, what does it mean?"

"If it's not speaking to our sin nature, what does it mean?"

"If verses 1-3 aren't teaching about our sin nature, what do they mean?"

"If the emboldened, italicized portion of this verse isn't also speaking of our sin nature, what does it mean?"

"If this doesn't speak to mankind's sin nature, what does it mean?"

"If this isn't denoting mankind's sin nature, what does it mean?"

"If this is not what he means, what then does it mean?"

Each of these questions are those which I asked following a specific citation which indicates the fact that each of us are born with a sin nature.

Marshal Art said...

I could have simply stated the challenge was "if these verses don't mean what they say, then what do they mean?" What they mean is that they answered this challenge, but not the part where you assured me you'd respond to show them in error. This might help you to remember, since you'd pretend you can't find it in the previous post:

""IF you want to take the more respectful, rational, humble approach and ask me to address a given text as it relates to your personal human theory, unproven as it is, then cite a passage - your best passage - and I'll offer my opinion about the passage in question as it relates to your human theory and explain (probably once again) why I don't think a given passage is at all proof of your theory/theories.""

"Or are you saying that these are "biblical facts that are objectively proven as God's will..."?""

No, I've stated repeatedly what I'm saying and you keep asking these pretend "clarifying questions". But now that you mention it, they do reflect God's Will, unless you think He was unaware that your boy the serpent was going to tempt the first couple. Try making that case someday (but not here and not now).

"NOTE the question mark and the inquiring nature of the sentence, it is a question, not a claim. To which you responded with this nonsense..."

This willful, intentional distortion of my position is answered in the original post to which this post is a sequel.

"When someone ASKS a question "IS THIS WHAT YOU THINK?????????" It is a QUESTION, not a claim and certainly not a distortion."

When someone like YOU asks a question which is glaringly unrelated to anything I had already said repeatedly, then the "question" is intentionally bullshitting, seeking to distract from your obligation, which was put to you in a clear, concise and unambiguous manner.

"You DO understand the concept of a Question, don't you?"

More unjustified condescension after a failed attempt to distract from your obligation.

"How basic do I have to make things for you fellas to understand?"

How many times must I restate what your obligation here is before you actually get a pair of testicles and a spine and man up to satisfy the challenge? Let me be basic for you: Stop fucking around and do what you were invited to do. I provided for your challenge, and because you learned how stupid your claim was that "sin nature" isn't Biblical, you're doing all you can to avoid doing WHAT YOU SAID YOU WOULD DO, as per the quote of your words which explained why I listed those verses.

"Frankly, I'm left with the reality that you all just don't understand the written word. WHICH would explain your pisspoor biblical "interpretation.""

You see, this is the very thing you're supposed to be doing here...proving my "interpretation" is "pisspoor". If this arrogant quote has any truth to it at all, you've now been given a second post in which to back it up. You lying coward.

Craig said...

You might be missing my point. You seem to be using the term "Biblical" as if inclusion in the Bible is automatically makes something prescriptive. Dan, in his graceless way, is pointing out the fact (as Stan is doing) that "Biblical" does not equal prescriptive. I'm suggesting, if for no other reason than to avoid giving Dan leverage, that you might be able to find a better term that "Biblical" to make your point.

Polygamy is "Biblical" by virtue of it's inclusion in Scripture, yet I hardly think that you would argue that polygamy should be practiced by Christians.

I'd suggest that there is s difference between "what Scripture teaches" and what Scripture describes, wouldn't you agree?

That the things that Scripture describes can be used as examples for teachings (see Stan's post on divorce), is True, yet we are not taught to engage in those practices.

More precision and accuracy is seemingly always better, isn't it?

Craig said...

I'm not sure why you are so offended by this, but whatever. I'm trying to offer a bit of constructive advice, take it or don't that's your choice. Dan's standard, is what Dan thinks. Your standard, I think, is what Scripture prescribes. But I could be wrong.

Craig said...

"1. Reasonable
2. Good
3. Godly/moral/advisable."

Subjective, vague, terms which you offer as some sort of objective standard.

1. "Reasonable" (in the opinion of Dan)
2. "Good" (according to whatever standard Dan decides makes something "good")
3. "Godly" (as you've removed Scripture as a source for what is "Godly", you're left with whatever hunches you have based on your concept of YHWH) "moral" (as you can't won't provide a universal/consistent/objective moral standard your use of the term can only be described as subjective and vague) "advisable" ("advisable" by who? this is so vague and subjective it would be funny if you weren't being serious)

Look, I wanted to respond to your idiocy but Art clearly doesn't want you to hijack his thread with your subjective nonsense. I'll graciously give you a thread where you can be as specific and objective about those terms as you like.

Craig said...

Dan thinks that he has the right, nay obligation, to condescend anywhere he likes. The he thinks he gets to define reality to suit himself goes without saying.

Craig said...

You make a good point, about Dan's use to the term "Biblical" (or "not Biblical"), and I understand that you are using his term to respond to him. Yet, his point (dodge or not) that something being mentioned in the Bible doesn't automatically make that thing to be emulated is valid.

So, if y'all are going to use the term "Biblical", how about actually defining what you mean by the term in this context. I could make (I believe) pretty accurate guesses about both of you, but instead of me guessing, why don't both of you take a minute and define the term so we all know exactly what you mean.

Craig said...

Dan constantly uses the "there's a line" strategy to support his claims. He regularly cites out of context snippets as if they prove his hunches to be True, while complaining when others cite Scripture after Scripture to make points.

It's one more example of his inconsistency in applying the same standards to himself that he demands of others.

Craig said...

""if these verses don't mean what they say, then what do they mean?"

The above is exactly the problem. Dan makes all kinds of claims that these verses are somehow "figurative" and leave it there. Figurative language is almost always used to describe something that is significant and to make it understandable. Yet, Dan cannot or will not provide an alternative reading of the verse in question "There is no one good..." that makes any sense. He asserts that it does not mean what it clearly says, yet cannot or will not do anything but assert that Jesus was wrong based on his own (flawed/subjective/personal/limited) assessment of a small sample size of people he knows.

To me it seems obvious. If you are going to insist that Jesus' words mean something other that what the plain meaning suggests, then you need an alternative explanation beyond labeling the language "figurative".

Let's take Dan's favorite proof text (Jesus quoting Isiah in the synagogue) and ask why, in that instance, Dan deems those words of Jesus to be taken in a woodenly literal sense and not figuratively. Why would I not be able to assert that Jesus is using "figurative"language (or quoting it" and that those words mean something else entirely?

Double standard at it's best.

The problem is that we DO understand, not that we don't.

Anonymous said...

Addressing another misunderstanding from Craig ...

"Dan makes all kinds of claims that these verses are somehow "figurative" and leave it there."

This does not reflect reality at all. Of course I went into some detail here and in time past about how Jesus' central conflicts during his ministry years and before were with the Pharisees and figures in power. In this context of the story he's dealing with a rich man, another person in power.

I made quite clear that my view is that these are clearly hyperbolic words meant to bring down the Pharisees and those in power to a more human level and less of a dictatorial one. Again you don't have to agree with my conclusion but you can't ignore the reality that I gave a very reasonable (and I think the most reasonable) way to understand "no one is good" in the context of the passage, in the context of Jesus' larger ministry, and in the context of the times.

Do you see that now?

Dan

Anonymous said...

Craig...

"Let's take Dan's favorite proof text (Jesus quoting Isiah in the synagogue) and ask why, in that instance, Dan deems those words of Jesus to be taken in a woodenly literal sense and not figuratively. Why would I not be able to assert that Jesus is using "figurative"language (or quoting it" and that those words mean something else entirely?"

Similarly and as always, I gave/have given textual and contextual support for why these words should be taken more literally. Jesus continually is addressing wealth and poverty issues and power dynamics associated with those. There are textual and contextual reasons to take such passages more literally. That's why.

And as a general reminder of what I repeatedly pointed out,

1. Jesus's central conflicts during his life and ministry were conflicts with the Pharisees and the rich and powerful.

2. It is indeed the rich and powerful and the Pharisees who continually plot against him to take him down. And eventually do

3.. Here we go. Jesus continually, more than any other topic, speaks of the realm of God, the beloved community, the place where the poor and marginalized and foreigners are welcome, the very realm of God on earth as it is in heaven. It is the central theme of his gospel as Jesus preaches it. In the context of that when Jesus says he's coming to preach good news to the poor and marginalized, we have database evidence, contextual and textual evidence, to take it rather literally.

Again you can disagree with my conclusions but you can't say I haven't made a case for them. You can't say that the case isn't based upon the text and context of Jesus' actual words and teachings and the times.

Dan

Anonymous said...

So. No it's not a double standard. I encourage all of us, in all of our theories as it relates to biblical text, to base them on the text and the context, which is what I'm doing consistently. It just seems like you're a bit blind to it or choose to ignore the reality that I have provided a case.

Dan

Marshal Art said...

It's not valid for this reason: he knows exactly what he means each time he insists our positions on doctrine, principles, concepts and teachings are "not Biblical", often adding (paraphrasing here) "it's just not in there!" to drive home his point. Now that I've provided verses which support my position as well as prove "sin nature" is " in there", he pretends he doesn't know what I mean when I use the term he chose with purpose to use. He can assume I'm using the word exactly as he did, rather than expect me to allow this diversion so he can continue to avoid the challenge he invited by daring to condescend that my position "isn't Biblical" just because he doesn't like it.

---Art

Craig said...

OK, don't define your terms that's cool. Maybe if y'all would define your terms no one would have to "assume" how one of you is "using the word". But y'all do what you want.

Craig said...

I understand that you have your "view" about Jesus' words, and that your "view" is that the plain meaning of Jesus' words is something entirely different from what Jesus actually says. That's great, but it's just you opining on your hunch. Calling a hunch a "view" doesn't somehow magically less unimpressive.

Yes, I see that you've offered (in a likely verbose manner) a bunch of gobbledygook self justification of your hunch. Unfortunately, that's not persuasive or proof. Just your hunch.

Craig said...

Yet, none of that definitively proves or argues for Jesus quote of Isiah not being figurative. Jesus was clearly using hyperbolic words and quoting hyperbolic prophecy to make a larger figurative point.

That you can provide out of context snippets of "words" that might support your eisegesis, isn't proof, it's proof texting.

Actually Jesus speaks of the "Kingdom of YHWH". not a "realm" or "beloved" community. The fact that you can't even quote Jesus accurately on a topic He spoke about often isn't a good look for you.

I can say all of those things.

Craig said...

Dan won't answer those questions, and we all know it.

Marshal Art said...

Frankly, Craig, I don't believe you've failed to understand what Dan means anytime he claims a position you've taken on issues if doctrine "isn't Biblical". But for your sake, I'll state boldly that Dan is insisting said doctrine isn't Christian teaching drawn directly from Biblical revelation. Thus, despite the doctrine in question, in this case, that we are each of us born with a sin nature, which explains our separation from God for which Christ sacrificed His Life to resolve, which IS the "Good News" Jesus brought to the poor in spirit....despite all this clearly revealed to us as a fact in Scripture, Dan nonetheless proclaims these revealed facts to be "not Biblical". He, for all intents and purposes, not only denies these facts don't fall under the heading "prescriptive"...a doctrine of the faith..., he seems unwilling to even agree anything remotely resembling these truths even appear anywhere between the covers of the Holy Bible.

Dan insists the doctrine isn't "taught" by Scripture (going so far as to bore us with nonsense that the Bible is an inanimate object and thus cannot teach as does an actual teacher in a classroom, ignoring the obvious that if we learn by reading, then what we've read has indeed taught us), despite the several citations provided to prove just that.

Thus, we both know damned well what Dan means by "Biblical" in this discussion as much as Dan does every time he asserts the doctrines, principles, concepts and teachings of Christianity we defend aren't Biblical. How else could it be understood in a context such as this?

Sadly, we should not be surprised if Dan chooses to exploit this little exchange of ours to avoid addressing the challenge of the previous post.

Anonymous said...

You continue to demand proof, reject anything we offer, then throw out snippets of proof texts, yeah it’s a double standard.

By all means, objectively prove one claim you’ve made.

Marshal Art said...

"Of course I went into some detail here and in time past about how Jesus' central conflicts during his ministry years and before were with the Pharisees and figures in power. In this context of the story he's dealing with a rich man, another person in power."

Totally irrelevant to whether or not Jesus meant exactly what His words in Mark 10:18 convey. Furthermore, you've done absolutely nothing to show how you focus on this inconsequential "conflict" (inconsequential to His mission aside from playing a role in bringing about His sacrifice on the cross to wash away our sin). You just like to inject your liberation theology marxism into every discussion of His mission. So again, you've given yourself here another opportunity to explain what His words meant if they didn't mean there is no one good but God alone, and how those words convey that alternative meaning you think is the "TRUE MEANING".

I fully expect you'll not provide. You never do.

Marshal Art said...

No, Craig. I'm not missing your point at all. But my point is wasting time on comparing "definitions" of the word "Biblical" or its use in this discussion is just the kind of diversion Dan needs to avoid his obligation to do what he said he would do if I provided the verses I did to support the fact that "sin nature" is a BIBLICAL doctrine...and one of immense importance.

Marshal Art said...

Not offended in the least, Craig. Indeed, I appreciate the advice you give, but see it as unnecessary. I use the term to speak of the prescriptive. Dan does, too, but pretends I have a different meaning because I gave him the evidence he demanded.

It's really a simple distinction, isn't it? That Jesus said something is descriptive. Why He said it is prescriptive. I just don't want to take up any time on that which will give Dan the chance he needs to flee his obligation once again.

Marshal Art said...

Exactly the point of this and the previous post. Dan has complete liberty to explain exactly what each of the cited verses mean if they do not mean what a plain reading of them conveys. He's doing every BUT providing, and this is after his own invitation to provide such verses, after which he stated he actually would address them...obviously believing I could not produce the very thing he demanded. Good gosh, the Paul's letter to the Romans is rife with references to our sin nature! (The current focus of my Life Group (A.K.A. Bible study group) It could be in Dan's 35 years of serious and prayerful study of Scripture, it never included a study of Romans. But it's clearly not like the doctrine isn't mentioned elsewhere, as my citations confirm.

Craig said...

Yes, Jesus "conflict" with some of the Pharisees is irrelevant to the text in question. Although, Jesus does command His followers to emulate the righteousness of the Pharisees. But, obviously this is just Dan imposing his hunches on the text.

Craig said...

Of course he does, yet he chooses not to. He hides behind calling it "hyperbolic" without explaining why or what Jesus is trying to communicate through the hyperbole.

Craig said...

Art: "What does this text mean?"
Dan: "It's clearly hyperbolic."
Art: "OK, but what does it mean?"
Dan: "Well, it can't possibly mean what I think you believe it means, because it's hyperbolic."
Art: "That's great, but what does it mean?"
Dan: "Well it's an invitation into some sort of blessed community of imperfect poor and oppressed people."
Art: "How do you get that from the specific text?"
Dan: "It's all about the broader context and how Jesus came to invite the poor and oppressed into some sort of beloved community and not focus on good or bad."
Art: "But what does the specific text mean specifically?"
Dan: "Well, since everyone is born good and many people are good, it clearly can't mean that no one has ever been good."
Art: "So, what does it mean?"
Dan: "Not what it says, because hyperbolic."
Art: "Well, what does it mean?"
Dan: Silence.

Marshal Art said...

Two posts/threads accurately condensed down to their essence. It's also an accurate reflection of what Dan means when he insists he answers questions directly.

Marshal Art said...

Sorry Ed. I don't publish comments which totally conflict with my rule against personal attacks on other visitors. That's my job and mine alone here.

At the same time, one's feelings about another can be expressed by a substantive comment related to the positions of the other.

Marshal Art said...

Note the abject corruption of Biblical teaching.

1. The record of these conflicts are for the benefit of the reader, to understand how not to live. Had there been no Pharisees, who like Dan corrupt the Word of God for the purpose of posturing, Jesus would have found another way to teach those lessons His interactions with them provided.

2. No one "took Him down". They had no such power over Him.

3. Dan always omits the part where God's welcome to all who repent and believe in Christ as Savior. This, I believe, is deliberate on his part for the benefit of those whose specific sins Dan enables.

And what for Dan constitutes as having "made a case" is not anywhere near compliant with the incredibly high level of criteria he places upon us. It's about as vague and meaningless as can be while he asserts the problem is in us for not being satisfied with it.

Anonymous said...

"Art: "But what does the specific text mean specifically?""

God Almighty have mercy.

Y'all really need to try to read for understanding. I gave a clear answer in the previous post and have addressed this endlessly over the years. He's using hyperbole to address the Pharisees' pride, the oppression of the ruling class, the ones who are arrogant in their presumption of their own goodness. To THOSE people he was reminding them that no one is perfectly good but God. Because, as Pharisees always presume (back then and today), they were presuming they were God's chosen ones, the moral and elect.

The answer, as I stated clearly on September 9th in the previous post and I've talked about a whole lot with you all, is right here and I quote myself. ..

IN THAT CONTEXT, is it NOT more reasonable that [Jesus] is removing the planks of arrogance, privilege, abuse and wealth from both the Pharisees and the rich, putting them in their place and reminding the blessed poor who he'd come to preach good news to that he was on their side?

Once again you can say you disagree with my understanding of it, just like I disagree with your little human petty understanding of it - the one that's factually wrong and just insane - but you can't say I have not answered the question. Read for understanding boys.

Dan

Anonymous said...

To put it in even briefer terms, using smaller words and sentences so you all can understand:

Jesus is telling the Pharisees and oppressors not to be so proud and arrogant and oppressive.

Dan

Anonymous said...

Craig...

"You continue to demand proof, reject anything we offer,"

Because Marshall keeps insisting it's a mythical "biblical fact" He is the one making an objective fact claim. The onus is on him to support it. Again, Why do y'all have this problem reading for understanding?

Dan

Marshal Art said...

Yes, it's his typical ploy. State "X" is true. There's no need to explain how, just accept that it is and if you disagree, you're rejecting "X" which is true because he said it is.

Dan Trabue said...

Marshal...

2. No one "took Him down". They had no such power over Him.

I'm speaking of the objective fact that the story is told in the gospel books of Jesus ongoing feud with/harassment by the Pharisees, the rich and powerful and how, according to the text, they soon began literally plotting to get rid of Jesus and eventually, in the story as it is told, they literally "took him down," they literally arranged to have him arrested, tried in a kangaroo court and had him executed.

That's objectively in the story of Jesus just as an observable fact. I don't think you disagree with that reality, so not sure what you're pushing back on, other than maybe the phrase, "take him down." But it's just a euphemism to describe what I just pointed out is literally in the story.

Marshal:

3. Dan always omits the part where God's welcome to all who repent and believe in Christ as Savior

Again, reading my words for the purpose of understanding, you can see how for years I've said quite plainly and clearly that the Gospel story of Jesus/by Jesus told in the Gospel books BEGIN with Jesus literally saying he'd come to preach the good news of welcome to all, beginning with the poor and marginalized. I'm not ignoring it. I'm leading with it.

Also, YOU don't believe that, yourself. After all, I HAVE and DO repent of my sins and I DO believe in Jesus, and yet, you don't think I'm saved and thus welcomed by God. Here, you probably would say something like, "You haven't repented IN THE RIGHT way or confessed of the RIGHT SINS (as determined by you), but I have/do repent of all my sins I'm aware of, which leaves you with the suggestion that one must have some sort of "perfect" understanding in order to be saved, which itself, is a fallacy and a blasphemy against grace.

But we've covered all that before.

Marshal Art said...

Don't invoke God Almighty. You don't believe in Him.

You didn't give an answer at all. You gave slop you expect us to accept as an intelligent, Scripture-backed response to the challenge you continue to dodge.

"He's using hyperbole to address the Pharisees' pride, the oppression of the ruling class, the ones who are arrogant in their presumption of their own goodness. To THOSE people he was reminding them that no one is perfectly good but God."

This is interesting, given there's no indication in the text that the Pharisees were present when Jesus encountered the RYR. That's not to say the Pharisees couldn't have been present, but without any clear textual statement to that effect, it's mere speculation, or more accurately, Trabue eisegesis. What span of time was there between Jesus responding to the Pharisees testing Him with the divorce question, then Jesus and the little children, then finally His encounter with the RYR? While the Pharisees did seek to track Jesus to find reasons to try or kill him, that doesn't mean they were present for every story or episode in which we read of Jesus. You only WANT them to be there and quite frankly NEED them to be there so you can pretend His words to the RYR were directed to them, rather than general teaching to all who were present. Ironically, you now contradict your standard narrative that Jesus came to bring His Good News to the materially poor by suggesting He directs His teachings to the Pharisees.

And of course, you ignore my mention of Mark 10:10, which follows His response to the Pharisees questions about divorce, wherein we find Mark states "When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this." It doesn't mention the Pharisees being in the house, too. Jesus is clearly addressing His disciples in the house. Were the Pharisees hanging around on the stoop waiting for them to come out? There's no indication of such.

Marshal Art said...

So by the time we get to Mark 10:18, it's more reasonable to suppose the Pharisees had been left behind to ponder Christ's response regarding divorce than for them to have been waiting for He and His posse to exit the house, watch Him bless the little children (which might have taken place in or just outside the house to which they retired) and then "As Jesus started on His way..." (v.17), they were hot on his heels. That's a lot of speculation in order to force your meaning onto the straightforward proclamation of the truth that "No one is good---except God alone." Thus, to answer this question:

"IN THAT CONTEXT, is it NOT more reasonable that [Jesus] is removing the planks of arrogance, privilege, abuse and wealth from both the Pharisees and the rich, putting them in their place and reminding the blessed poor who he'd come to preach good news to that he was on their side?"

No. It's not the least bit reasonable at all given the ACTUAL context as presented in the passage.

"Once again you can say you disagree with my understanding of it, just like I disagree with your little human petty understanding of it - the one that's factually wrong and just insane - but you can't say I have not answered the question."

Some blatant problems here, the first of which is your contrasting of your bullshit eisegesis as an "understanding" against what you arrogantly dare to regard as our "little human petty understanding of it". Our understanding doesn't rely on anything more than a plain reading of the text. Yours requires eisegetical speculation the text in no way implies. Such speculative fantasy is essential to your "understanding".

Marshal Art said...

Next, is your wild claim that our text-driven understanding is somehow "factually wrong" without ever having provided the "facts" which would support it, as well as the ad hominem " attack on our mental state by suggesting letting the text inform us is somehow "insane", but inventing a backstory to further your marxism isn't.

No, Dan. This isn't answering the question, because one can't get from "no one is good but God alone" to your nonsensical imaginary admonishment of the Pharisees. Indeed, it is FAR more "reasonable" to assume Jesus was admonishing all of mankind, (particularly arrogant people like the Trabues who think they know better who is "good", even more particularly the implication that the Trabues regard themselves as "good"). No. It's not answering the question, "if it doesn't mean what it says, then what does it mean?"

We understand your marxist lying ass perfectly, Dan.

Marshal Art said...

No, I don't think "polygamy" is Biblical simply because it's mentioned in the Bible. That would be part of a descriptive passage, not a teaching that we should engage in it.

I do agree with your point about the difference between what Scripture teaches and what it merely describes. What I don't agree with is any implication that my use of the term "Biblical" in any way suggests I'm using it to describe the latter. I simply don't buy that there's any reason to suggest there's an issue here in how I use the word, nor how Dan meant it to be understood when he used it himself to insist that actual Biblical teachings aren't properly labeled "Biblical" simply because he doesn't like the teaching. And truly, that alone should be a clear definition to anyone who might wonder given how it is used here. The doctrine, concept, principle of man's sin nature is a teaching of Scripture...a Biblical teaching (thus, "Biblical")...and the evidence for that is in the several verses I cited in the previous post. Dan claimed the opposite in asserting "sin nature" isn't "Biblical" ("it's not even anywhere in there!"), which led me to list those verses. The verses come from the Bible, so we can say they're Biblical verses. The verses speak to, or teach, the doctrine of man's sin nature, so we can say it's a Biblical doctrine, principle or concept and thus Biblical AND in the Bible. It's here where Dan then moves to his next ploy, "just because you think these verses mean...." and remains without the "TRUE MEANING" of any of the verses if they don't mean what a plain reading of them conveys.

And here we are, still waiting. This is all which is important to this discussion. I don't give a flying rat's ass how anyone might understand the meaning of the word "Biblical". I simply used the word in the same way Dan used it to compel me to do the post, after he made his claim against the doctrines as unBiblical at his Blog of Lies and Perversions and any other discussion where the doctrine came up. Once I provided verses which clearly speak to the doctrine, it was then when Dan chose to question what I meant by the word he initially chose to use to assert the doctrine is not in Scripture. And as I've provided in this thread, Dan himself set the terms of this challenge and I'm holding him to it. There's no need to discuss the definition of the word given that fact.

Marshal Art said...

"To put it in even briefer terms, using smaller words and sentences so you all can understand:"

Get over yourself. No one here has any problems understanding you and what you try to do in these discussions.

"Jesus is telling the Pharisees and oppressors not to be so proud and arrogant and oppressive."

That's your self-serving eisegesis again, and the text does not support it in any way. Your laughable attempt to pretend the text does fails to make, "No one is good--except God alone" mean, "Hey you Pharisees and oppressors! Don't be so proud, arrogant and oppressive!" There's no evidence from the text to suggest any "Pharisees and oppressors" were in the vicinity when Jesus was confronted by the RYR, about whom Mark goes out of his way to note that "Jesus looked at him and loved him." (v.21) I can't recall a passage where He looks at the Pharisees or any "oppressors" and tells any of them that. This suggests the RYR is not akin to either, but just a young dude with bucks.

I'd suggest as well that the passage in whole isn't even about wealth, but about putting anything above God. Verses 29-30 suggest as much. It doesn't, however, fit your marxist liberation theology.

Marshal Art said...

2. Yeah...I know the story. It's irrelevant here, as it is most times you bring it up. And "just a euphemism"?? You're no good at using them than you are in crafting an analogy. And you said, "And they eventually do"...as in, they did take Him down. But they didn't. So I push back on your bad form in describing "the confict" and your unnecessary reference to it rather than satisfying the challenge put to you by your own invitation.

3. I'm aware you insist upon your marxist liberation theology revisionism of the ministry of Jesus. You ignore Scripture for your preferred version of events.

Do you know what it means to "repent". It seems you either don't or you're again arrogantly rewriting God's Law wherein we find what is unacceptable behavior to avoid. I do not determine in any way what is or isn't among the obvious sins you continue to perpetrate which you have, without any authority, chosen to no longer recognize them as the sins they are. This BS about needing perfect understanding of that which isn't the least bit ambiguous, but indeed quite straightforward and impossible to misunderstand is your typical dishonesty...one of those many easy to understand sins you continue to perpetrate with abandon. We have indeed covered all this before and your arrogance remains, because after all, you know better than God, Whom you pretend to worship.

Craig said...

Thanks. If only these posts didn't get so long and meandering.

Craig said...

I'll grant that there are a lot of words there, and somewhat of an explanation. But it doesn't align with the actual plain meaning of the text. It's one thing to assert some minor disagreement with the meaning of a word or two in the text, but this is simply restating the meaning of the text in a way that does injustice to the text itself. Jesus was not shy at pointing at those who had issues with Him. But in this text, Jesus for some reason, chooses to cloak a diatribe against "the Rich, the pharisees, and whoever" in His simple "No one is good but YHWH" statement. It's amazing that Dan can magically conjure all that out of such a simple direct statement. That he misses Christ's claim to deity is strange, but not unusual.

It's interesting that he refers to our reading of the plain meaning of the text as our "little, human, petty, understanding", while he seems to believe that his flight of fancy isn't pretty much the same thing. Not to mention his claim that our reading is "factually wrong" (which means that he believes his to be :factually" right), without actually even attempting to provide objective proof of his "factually" right claim.

Craig said...

Coming from someone who embodies pride, oppressive behavior, and arrogance, this is hilarious. Especially as Jesus never once mentions anyone but the RYR in the passage, and gives every indication that this was a conversation between two people (with some/all of Jesus' disciples within earshot), not a public rebuke of anyone. Jesus didn't have any problem going after the Pharisees publicly and rebuking them, but in this one incident He hid his rebuke of the Pharisees behind a completely unrelated conversation. I'll give you points for imagination though.

Strangely enough, Jesus praised the righteousness of the Pharisees also.

Craig said...

So, why then is the onus not on you to objectively prove your claims? Why is your demand for proof always one way?

I completely understand your double standard of demanding objective proof from others, while not providing it yourself.

Craig said...

Actually the story begins long before that moment. Did not Jesus' claim to deity in the temple when he was young count as the beginning, or perhaps the "This is my Son..." moment, or perhaps when He was named Jesus. That you arbitrarily assign the example of Jesus reading Isiah in a synagogue as some sort of official "beginning" sounds like something a proud and arrogant person might do.

Craig said...

I thought Dan was done with this thread. I guess done, really means, not done to Dan.

Marshal Art said...

Yeah, but I kinda get it. He claims he's done, but does so leaving something which provokes a response, which provokes him to return to respond to that which his sign-off comment provoked.

Craig said...

So, in Dan's world "done" means "not done" and "no one good but YHWH" means "this is a warning to all of the mean and nasty oppressors to stop oppressing because you're not good".

Got it.

But, yeah, we all know that anytime he claims to be "done" that he'll be back.

Marshal Art said...

"Mythical biblical fact"! Seems oxymoronic...with a special emphasis on the moronic part of the word. It's either myth or fact. It can't be both.

The issue here is that I have indeed supported my position by showing the concept of man's sin nature is Biblical in the sense of a fact related to us in the Bible, and such that continued insistence it isn't a Biblical concept demands support of its own...which as yet hasn't been supplied. The previous post provided a possible path to that objection..."then what do the verses mean?"...and no alternative explanation tied directly to specific Biblical verses or passages seems to exist or they'd have been easily provided. Lots of presumptions, but no hard data. The Mark 10:18 critique is an example: apparently, the fact that two passages prior Jesus was confronted with the Pharisees over the issue of divorce somehow means the 10:18 verse was directed at them and those like them, despite the text not indicating whether or not they were present. We're just supposed to accept that they were because Dan's position needs them to be. That's not the kind of hard evidence Dan would ever accept from us. Indeed, my citations directly address man's nature and Dan still rejects the notion that man's sin nature is a Biblical concept.

Marshal Art said...

But Craig...none of that fits Dan's narrative.

Craig said...

1. Obviously Jesus would have found a way to make those points regardless of the Pharisees. Of course He also commended their righteousness, so it wasn't as one sided as Dan pretends.

2, Technically, you are correct. Jesus death was part of YHWH's redemptive plan and would have happened somehow. Yet, the Jewish leaders did play a role in YHWH's plan and did, in a sense, help "take Him down". Yet, had they not being inadvertently been fulfilling YHWH's plan/purpose they would have failed.

3. Dan omits, or explains away lots of parts of the Gospels, the Torah, and Jesus Gospel.

Dan seems to think that spouting his hunches is making a case. I guess it is in some sense. But without anything but his hunches, it's not persuasive at all.

Marshal Art said...

It's consistent with Dan's character that he believes he can throw out any collection of words and insist it's the explanation or support expected of him and that we must accept it as such. If we don't see the connection between his collections of words and the explanation/support requested, it's somehow always a matter of our alleged deficiency in comprehension. But being the intellectually inferior one, am I mistaken it expecting explanations are supposed to explain, clarifications to clarify and actual "HARD DATA" should actually support a position? And ironically, he's claimed to have taught Sunday school to kids. Did any of them leave class not scratching their little heads wondering what it was they just sat through?

Marshal Art said...

I wonder why that happens.

Craig said...

The problem is that you and I tend to view Scripture as authoritative if not objectively True, while Dan seems to have different views. Under his construct, no one can prove anything from history objectively. Which benefits him as he reads Scripture.

The concept of man's Sin nature runs throughout Scripture and it seems nuts to deny that it can be found there. I suspect that it's a matter of it not being stated explicitly enough for Dan.

What's strange is that Dan substitutes "imperfection" and "bent toward sin" for "Sin nature", but if you look at how he describes his hunches, it's functionally no different from having a "Sin nature". Dan also seems to focus on "sins" (behavior), and especially on certain sins (oppression, wealth, etc), while being less comfortable with the idea of Sin being something beyond mere actions. Jesus, on the other hand, spends lots of time on the mind/heart and what it is about us that leads to "sins", and how the path is more about what is inside of ourselves than what we do.

Most of Dan's eisegesis is to make something mean something else by invoking "hyperbole" or "figurative language" without an explanation of why his "figurative language" hunch makes more sense than the plain meaning of the text, or whether or not the "figurative language" hunch aligns with the text. He doesn't seem to have a problem insisting that the "figurative meaning" of a text is completely unrelated or contradictory of the plain meaning of the text.

Craig said...

Of course it doesn't. It was probably "hyperbole" or "figurative language".

Craig said...

Very much so.

If I followed Dan's example, I could state the following and expect to be believed because I supported it with myself.

You won't believe what happened today on my way into the office. I was driving down the road and I saw a pink, badger spotted with purple spots. It was the craziest thing. Unfortunately I couldn't get a picture because it ran away, but I know what I saw and it was absolutely real.

Craig said...

I have no idea.

Marshal Art said...

As many apologists and Christian theologians can attest, the beginning being in Genesis 3:15, which speaks of Jesus's mission.

Anonymous said...

It’s definitely mentioned in the OT. Im merely pointing out that Dan is ignoring prior mentions in the Gospels.

C

Marshal Art said...

I was just piling on due to Dan's insistence on citing that single Jesus reading of Isaiah which tickles Dan's marxist bent.

Craig said...

Pile away.