tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post1437669340367986052..comments2024-03-29T04:17:43.875-05:00Comments on Marshal Art's: Born On The Side Of A Hill?Marshal Arthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comBlogger91125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-24322454357998536512010-04-15T09:53:09.759-05:002010-04-15T09:53:09.759-05:00Apologies, Stan. My intent was only to suggest tha...Apologies, Stan. My intent was only to suggest that most churches don't do that much for the poor or homeless, and the assumption was that any of your churches would probably fit, as would most churches that I have attended would fit.<br /><br />Still, it was unfair and presumptuous of me to name names. I am sorry.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-64350682356341867902010-04-15T09:45:38.885-05:002010-04-15T09:45:38.885-05:00Dan Trabue: "Marshall's, Bubba's, Mom...<b>Dan Trabue:</b> "<i>Marshall's, Bubba's, Mom2's, Stan's and five of your favorite churches combined.</i>"<br /><br />And why on earth would you want to include me in that? You know nothing about my church. I haven't attacked you. The only comment I made in this entire series was <i>the first</i> comment, and that one you generally agreed with.<br /><br />Never mind. Rhetorical question. If your best understanding of "don't worry about clothing" is "don't care what you wear" (if you look at the <i>entire</i> context, the dialog there was about God's provision, not our wardrobes), then discussing attitudes for being in the presence of God is pointless. Leave me out of this.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04523232247971115247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-69924337835170852332010-04-14T23:21:30.415-05:002010-04-14T23:21:30.415-05:00I felt compelled to post on what my church does in...I felt compelled to post on what my church does in order to make a point to Dan. I also felt compelled to delete said comment because to leave it felt too much like bragging.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-58676740096790587822010-04-13T07:21:31.459-05:002010-04-13T07:21:31.459-05:00Dan,
Thanks for that. Even though I came late I ...Dan,<br /><br />Thanks for that. Even though I came late I don't think there is much left here either.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-75142586435505853222010-04-12T21:41:22.093-05:002010-04-12T21:41:22.093-05:00Thanks for that, Dan.
Like Bubba, I'm tapped ...Thanks for that, Dan.<br /><br />Like Bubba, I'm tapped out on this issue. I stand by what I've said regarding the outward display of honor demonstrated in the choice of clothes for Sunday services. I stand by what I've said regarding the obvious fact that so many don't make the effort, as small and petty an effort as it is, which makes it all the more sad that it isn't done by everyone who claims to believe in and honor the Almighty.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-77571385377193492692010-04-12T21:25:00.495-05:002010-04-12T21:25:00.495-05:00(I will note, Craig, that I DID leave you out of m...(I will note, Craig, that I DID leave you out of my initial list... <br /><br />"Marshall's, Bubba's, Mom2's, Stan's and five of your favorite churches combined."<br /><br />Knowing you were involved with building homes for the poor and with working in Haiti, I am not surprised to see your Gospel work holding true. Still, that does not justify my arrogant defense of my church. Apologies, again.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-15493665057023195722010-04-12T21:22:11.737-05:002010-04-12T21:22:11.737-05:00Thanks, Craig, for your voice. You are right, I wa...Thanks, Craig, for your voice. You are right, I was wrong.<br /><br />I AM proud of all that Jeff St (and you) do for the least of these. However, I was overly arrogant in how I expressed that pride. I'm sorry, I hope you can forgive this sinner.<br /><br />In Jesus' words (Matt 11), when John the Baptist asked if he was "the One"...<br /><br /><i>“Go tell John what you hear and see: The blind see, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have good news proclaimed to them. Blessed is anyone who takes no offense at me” </i><br /><br />God bless you and may you all forgive my arrogant defense of myself.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-34191838066625167552010-04-12T21:13:33.013-05:002010-04-12T21:13:33.013-05:00Dan, I'm disappointed but not the least bit su...Dan, I'm disappointed but not the least bit surprised that you don't do a whole lot of apologizing for comments that are accurately described as inducing a pissing contest -- comments that are way too presumptuous given YOUR OWN standards that require us to draw no conclusions about your church from anything less than complete knowledge of every relevant fact, and comments that <b>**ARE**</b> evidence of the sin of pride insofar as your desire to compare Jeff Street to others.<br /><br />Even if Mom2 had been suggesting that y'all don't do enough for the needy, it would have sufficed for you to say that y'all do a lot: you plow right into the unseemly by repeatedly insisting that you do more than all our congregations combined.<br /><br /><br />The fact is, Mom2 wasn't suggesting any such thing: she was asking whether Jeff Street helps the homeless by providing them with attire that would help them find sufficient employment to rise above their present circumstances. You could have answered that question without becoming outraged about a non-existent suggestion that Jeff Street does nothing for the poor.<br /><br />But, then, that wouldn't have fed your apparently insatiable need for moral preening, so you pretend that Jeff Street's honor was insulted. In the same way, you pretended that your first comment to me here was intended to show agreement with me, so you could say how sorry you are that I'm a jerk; and in the same way, you pretended that I attacked your church's children by suggesting that <b>THEIR ADULT TEACHERS</b> might not have their priorities straight.<br /><br /><br />It's still not clear whether your position is that there are no real standards for proper attire, or whether your supposedly practical and reasonable clothes are closer attuned to "Godly standards."<br /><br />And it's not clear why you keep bringing up Matthew 6 if you have no problem with thoughtfulness about one's attire.<br /><br />I'll be clear that I neither expect nor really desire any real clarification. I don't think you're an honest man, and I think you rarely hold worthwhile opinions.<br /><br />But it's still worth noting, at least once, just how opaque you're being, about what problems you actually have with Marshall's original post and what beliefs you personally hold about whether one's devotion to God can or should manifest itself in one's choice of clothing, even accounting for supposedly "random and whimsical" cultural mores.<br /><br /><br />Marshall, I do hope to get to emailing you sooner rather than later; sorry for the continued delays. :)<br /><br />In the meantime, I think I've said all I need to in this particular thread.Bubbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-23189836522290299242010-04-12T19:17:40.556-05:002010-04-12T19:17:40.556-05:00"So, perhaps you should back off your suggest...<i>"So, perhaps you should back off your suggestion that WE'RE somehow not doing enough to help the least of these."</i><br /><br />I don't know that I actually made such a suggestion, but perhaps if what you do is ongoing, it means that what you do ISN'T enough or isn't adequate in really helping. But I'm not concerned with any of that in this post. YOU'RE the one who keeps bringing up things that provoke legitimate responses, responses you don't like so you add to the original later as if done purposely to entrap us. YOU'RE the one who spoke only of muddy homeless people who have nothing better to wear, didn't you? You wanna pretend to be a man, then man up and admit you set the tone with your initial comments. <br /><br />And it seems to me that you confuse "favorite" with "best". My favorite pair of pants are jeans. I don't wear jeans to church even though I like these jeans and I like the way they look on me. They're comfortable and fit well. They're durable and likely to last longer under stressful conditions than would my "best" clothes would. I wear my best and don't suppose that my favorite ranks in that category for the purpose of honoring God at Sunday services. You do God no honor by wearing your favorite mustard-stained Che t-shirt to Sunday service. But you do honor yourself by supposing you're lookin' good doing so.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-8824574544673463152010-04-12T19:17:22.196-05:002010-04-12T19:17:22.196-05:00"Now, could I be mistaken?"
Yes you are..."Now, could I be mistaken?"<br /><br />Yes you are.<br /><br />"Could it be that your churches all together do more for the homeless and poor than we do? Sure, it's possible. But it's just not likely, I'm guessing."<br /><br />Wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of our preconceptions there would we. Again, facts would be preferable to your prideful "guesses".<br /><br /><br />Since when is doing Gods work a competition anyway? Are those in need more needy if they live in the urban core rather than first ring suburbs? <br /><br />"I don't think stating facts is bragging. Although there may have been an element of arrogance in the way I spoke, I was mostly just trying to chastise (righteously, I say) "Mom2" for her attempt at suggesting that we're not doing enough for the homeless/poor. I was not attempting to "brag," but just state the facts."<br /><br />And yet your pride wins this one. Are you seriously contending that the statement; "Jeff St has almost certainly done more (in terms of feeding, housing, befriending, clothing, etc) the homeless, the poor, the orphaned, the marginalized than all your churches put together", is a "fact". If so then provide some evidence. If not put away your arrogant pride and apologize.<br /><br /><br />"Is it possible that ONE of your churches may even do more than we do? Well sure, it's possible, but it's just not likely, not if you're an average church."<br /><br />Well yes it is possible, maybe even likely. Especially if one restricts comments to actual facts.<br /><br />"Do you disagree? Do you think that "most" churches or the average church has a homeless minister and ministers to the homeless on a daily, regular basis? Do you think that most Christians have taken in the homeless to live with them?<br /><br />At Jeff St, probably one third to a half of our families have done so, do you think that most churches can say the same?"<br /><br />Really don't care what "most" churches do. Really don't have any reason to suspect you even know what "most" churches do. Really don't want to get into a pissing match with your prideful arrogant attitude. <br /><br />"And so, if I have jumped to a bad conclusion and one of you DOES belong to a church that ministers to the homeless significantly, I will be man enough, Christian enough to say, "I am very sorry. Your church actually DOES do a good bit for the homeless. Good for you, God bless you and forgive me for jumping to that bad conclusion. I was wrong and I admit it. I'm genuinely sorry."<br /><br />I'll believe it when I read it.<br /><br />"But all the same, I don't think that's likely and I don't think it's arrogant at all to point it out. I AM proud of our little church and our Gospel work."<br /><br />Not arrogant, just prideful.<br /><br />The Bible also addresses pride, and suggests that good deeds should be done in secret, not bragged about. With that in mind, I apologize of my recitation of some of what we do crossed that line. <br /><br />So, what is the "gospel" you share with the folks you encounter anyway?Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-27520929439697029982010-04-12T19:17:40.557-05:002010-04-12T19:17:40.557-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-34383525251351813252010-04-12T19:16:15.015-05:002010-04-12T19:16:15.015-05:00"I have said that it's "just a guess..."I have said that it's "just a guess, but I think a safe one..."<br /><br />Based on your hunches, prejudices, preconceptions and nothing more.<br /><br />"I think it is a safe best that we do more than your congregations because, as I noted, of our location - we live amongst the least of these and we don't have much choice but to minister with and to and for the least of these on a very regular basis IF we are going to be ministers of the gospel."<br /><br />This is purely hubris. While we do not live among (I really doubt you all do either) the poor and homeless, we are not strangers to those areas of our cities. For you to presume so, is simply prideful hubris. It's a safe bet that the 'Gospel" you all share has little to do with salvation.<br /><br />"Additionally, I am quite familiar with churches. I have attended many, many churches in my nearly 40 years of being a Christian. I have read about even more churches. I am well aware that in the US, MOST churches...<br /><br />a. don't have ANY homeless members (again, just a guess, but a fairly safe one, I believe);<br /><br />b. probably have very little contact on a regular basis with the homeless;<br /><br />c. and as a result, just don't spend much time working with the homeless as closely as churches like the Salvation Army (all over), Church of our Savior (in DC), JPUSA (in Chicago) or Jeff St in Louisville, to name a few examples;"<br /><br />So what, for your to assume that these paltry examples describe the churches represented here, just shows your pride and condescension. Dan, you must familiarize yourself with the concept of using facts. If you have facts the my church does less than yours, then bring it. If not shut up and apologize. Of course then you'd have to define "more", which would be defined in such a way as to make your church look "better". Not to mention defining "better".<br /><br />"Doug (I believe), the conservative writer over at the Stones Cry Out blog, grew up in a Salvation Army family. I wouldn't make this claim (that Jeff St probably does more than any ten "normal" churches does for the poor) about his Salvation Army church - in fact, I would make the claim that HIS church ALSO probably does more for the homeless than your churches and any five others."Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-12853018437293174672010-04-12T18:48:49.485-05:002010-04-12T18:48:49.485-05:00First of all, at this juncture, I wouldn't eve...<i>First of all, at this juncture, I wouldn't even begin to list what my humble congregation does for anyone.</i><br /><br />And I don't blame you. So, perhaps you should back off your suggestion that WE'RE somehow not doing enough to help the least of these.<br /><br />Perhaps Mom2 should apologize for suggesting we don't "walk the walk."<br /><br />Perhaps you should have just stuck with the point that we ought to give of our best to God and leave it at that. <br /><br />And if some view "their best" as a pair of jeans and a t-shirt, you should gladly rejoice in that, rather than grouse that they're not meeting some random, whimsical cultural standard that is your own personal pet peeve, not a biblical ideal to which to aspire.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-27111354981879328712010-04-12T18:21:03.039-05:002010-04-12T18:21:03.039-05:00"And so, if I have jumped to a bad conclusion...<i>"And so, if I have jumped to a bad conclusion and one of you DOES belong to a church that ministers to the homeless significantly..."</i><br /><br />"Significantly"??? According to whom? So here, where I am given grief for your perception that I'm mandating what signifies a significant level of appearance, you're going to judge what constitutes a significant level of charity. Imagine that! <br /><br />First of all, at this juncture, I wouldn't even begin to list what my humble congregation does for anyone. I'm not about to play "match this" on such a subject and be as boastful as you are. <br /><br />And no, Luke was not bragging, but only recording history. You're bragging. And Paul has authority to suggest what is or isn't sufficient charitable giving. You don't have any authority. You passed the point of manning up when you took Mom2's statements as an attack rather and then began to pridefully list the accomplishments of Jeff St., a place that does much in the way of charity, but in the realm of spreading the Word, not much so well (based once again on your own words).<br /><br />Mom2's comments, as were mine, only wondered at the expenditures toward practical ends, or the lack of them. NOW you say you buy suits for seeking employment. Why didn't you just say to Mom2, "We DO buy suits for the poor so they can wear them to interviews." You could have saved a whole lot of keystrokes. But no, you had to boast and chastise (as if you have that right).Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-68633178617821800072010-04-12T17:59:32.072-05:002010-04-12T17:59:32.072-05:00Now, could I be mistaken? Could it be that your ch...Now, could I be mistaken? Could it be that your churches all together do more for the homeless and poor than we do? Sure, it's possible. But it's just not likely, I'm guessing. <br /><br />Is it possible that ONE of your churches may even do more than we do? Well sure, it's possible, but it's just not likely, not if you're an average church.<br /><br />Do you disagree? Do you think that "most" churches or the average church has a homeless minister and ministers to the homeless on a daily, regular basis? Do you think that most Christians have taken in the homeless to live with them?<br /><br />At Jeff St, probably one third to a half of our families have done so, do you think that most churches can say the same?<br /><br />Again, I don't say this to brag, just to point out a glorious and wonderful fact? Wouldn't you join me in rejoicing in such a cool fact?<br /><br />I would not have even have brought it up, since it's off topic, except that mom2 chose to try to chastise us for not doing enough, suggesting we don't "walk the walk...," and so I showed her why she was wrong to jump to that conclusion.<br /><br />And so, if <i><b>I</b></i> have jumped to a bad conclusion and one of you DOES belong to a church that ministers to the homeless significantly, I will be man enough, Christian enough to say, "I am very sorry. Your church actually DOES do a good bit for the homeless. Good for you, God bless you and forgive me for jumping to that bad conclusion. I was wrong and I admit it. I'm genuinely sorry."<br /><br />But all the same, I don't think that's likely and I don't think it's arrogant at all to point it out. I AM proud of our little church and our Gospel work. <br /><br />Christian Gospel writer Luke had no problems pointing out the reality of sharing with those in need. He writes in Acts 4...<br /><br /><i>“There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them . . . and distribution was made to each as any had need”</i><br /><br />And...<br /><br /><i>“ No one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own”</i><br /><br />Was Luke "boasting" in an arrogant way? I don't think so.<br /><br />Paul chastised some of the early churches for not giving as other churches had given to those in need, was he "boasting" in an arrogant way in doing so? Or just pointing out a reality, in an effort to encourage the notion of economic sharing, especially and specifically with the "least of these?"<br /><br />I think the latter.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-42163881123476962012010-04-12T17:36:33.494-05:002010-04-12T17:36:33.494-05:00Regarding the "arrogant" proclamation I&...Regarding the "arrogant" proclamation I've made about my church and its assistance to the poor...<br /><br />1. I have said that it's "just a guess, but I think a safe one..."<br /><br />2. I think it is a safe best that we do more than your congregations because, as I noted, of our location - we live amongst the least of these and we don't have much choice but to minister with and to and for the least of these on a very regular basis IF we are going to be ministers of the gospel.<br /><br />3. Additionally, I am quite familiar with churches. I have attended many, many churches in my nearly 40 years of being a Christian. I have read about even more churches. I am well aware that in the US, MOST churches...<br /><br />a. don't have ANY homeless members (again, just a guess, but a fairly safe one, I believe);<br /><br />b. probably have very little contact on a regular basis with the homeless;<br /><br />c. and as a result, just don't spend much time working with the homeless as closely as churches like the Salvation Army (all over), Church of our Savior (in DC), JPUSA (in Chicago) or Jeff St in Louisville, to name a few examples;<br /><br />4. Doug (I believe), the conservative writer over at the Stones Cry Out blog, grew up in a Salvation Army family. I wouldn't make this claim (that Jeff St probably does more than any ten "normal" churches does for the poor) about his Salvation Army church - in fact, I would make the claim that HIS church ALSO probably does more for the homeless than your churches and any five others.<br /><br />5. I don't think stating facts is bragging. Although there may have been an element of arrogance in the way I spoke, I was mostly just trying to chastise (righteously, I say) "Mom2" for her attempt at suggesting that we're not doing enough for the homeless/poor. I was not attempting to "brag," but just state the facts.<br /><br />6. The facts are Jeff St has...<br /><br />a. a homeless minister - a position that VERY few churches would even consider, much less expend resources on;<br /><br />b. a drop in program five days a week for the homeless, the mentally ill and just anyone who needs a free cup of coffee and a safe place to visit, get advice from our homeless minister, get assistance (such as socks, jackets, clothes, underwear and, yes, suits - for job interviews and the such);<br /><br />c. a Sunday lunch we provide for those in need;<br /><br />d. a coffee house where all are welcome, especially our homeless and mentally ill friends, where they can showcase their talents, enjoy singing and music and poetry, and have free coffee, snacks in a safe, relaxing, welcoming environment;<br /><br />e. Jeff St members have lived with the homeless, have invited the homeless to live with them, have adopted homeless families and children (both legally and unofficially);<br /><br />f. Jeff St members include many social workers, teachers, ministers, mental health workers, health care providers, etc who work daily to house the homeless, to find employment for the jobless, to provide training for those needing training, to provide childcare for those needing childcare, etc, etc...<br /><br />g. Jeff St has helped start two housing units for women in transition from being homeless to being stable;<br /><br />...just for starters. Am I proud of all the work we do for the homeless, children and those in need? Well, sure. But that's a good thing to be proud of, don't you think? People hear about churches like Jeff St, like the Salvation Army, like JPUSA and Church of the Savior and it restores a bit of confidence in the Church that has been undone by harshly judgmental and less helpful churches/Christians. <br /><br />I'm always glad when I hear of churches doing good work, sharing quite literally the good news with the poor, as Jesus came to do, and don't think it a bad thing at all to talk of such. Brother Neil, for example, speaks of his visits to prisons and God bless him! What a genuinely good and Godly thing to do, to honor Jesus' words who said, "I was a prisoner and you came to visit me!"Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-18989293417957893822010-04-12T12:40:08.461-05:002010-04-12T12:40:08.461-05:00OK, I've followed this for a while, and can...OK, I've followed this for a while, and can't stay out any more.<br /><br />1. I'm with Mark and Bubba. This is a best a secondary issue. It is quite possible to show proper reverence for God without wearing a suit and tie. <br /><br />2. I don't think that just grabbing the first thing in the closet quite cuts it, but if you aren't willing to put forth the effort that's not my problem.<br /><br />3. As with many things I am completely humbled by what I find when worshiping with my Haitian brothers and sisters. Although I can't post the photographic evidence here, lets just say that if the people in the poorest district of the poorest country in this hemisphere can come to church clean and dressed up in clean nice cloths, surely it's not too much to expect that folks here in the good old USA can put forth a little effort to dress well for church. <br /><br />But this, just shocked me.<br /><br />"Jeff St has almost certainly done more (in terms of feeding, housing, befriending, clothing, etc) the homeless, the poor, the orphaned, the marginalized than all your churches put together"<br /><br />There are two conclusions that can be drawn from this statement.<br /><br />1. Dan is unfamiliar with what the Bible has to say about pride.<br /><br />2. Dan is comfortable offering statements for which he has absolutely no evidence. One could argue that this is an attempt to slander the various churches that he refers to.<br /><br />I find this kind of thing ridiculous. I attend a church that supports the poor and marginalized in both the US and abroad. However, to try to belittle what other churches do would be wrong. <br /><br />So Dan, just keep braggin' it doesn't really surprise anyone that much.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149415942585847184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-38372689415192923802010-04-12T11:40:38.021-05:002010-04-12T11:40:38.021-05:00"Help me. Teach me. I'll wipe out our his...<i>"Help me. Teach me. I'll wipe out our history and listen with a fresh and open mind.<br /><br />Here's your chance."</i><br /><br />I think a suggestion has been given already. Divert some of that world famous Jeff St. charity towards the purchase of decent clothes that will provide a better chance at securing employment as well as allowing the wearer to honor God by way of good grooming. Since their troubles revolve around a lack of income, why would anyone NOT make an effort to help in that area? That damned culture in which we live might not see the "wisdom" in your Scriptural interpretation and instead prefer job applicants to look like they care about getting the job. (Of course, a suit and tie is not appropriate for every job sought. But clean and presentable clothes appropriate to the job sought are always required if one really wants to make the best impression.)<br /><br /><i>"At least you're honest in that this is all entirely just a hunch. NO biblical reason or support for these whimsical guesses of yours."</i><br /><br />Read the piece you reprinted more closely, Ace. You'll find that my admission of a hunch was quite specific. It was not about "this is all", but in regards to your justification for why YOU don't dress better for Him. I certainly don't need Biblical support for that. <br /><br />And aside from my opinion of YOU, Dan, based on your own words over all these years, there is no judgementalism in my opinion of what constitutes appropriate apparel for Sunay services. If I pointed out one individual, I would need to know the extent of their wardrobe and the usual destination of their discretionary funds. I spoke of one person only from my congregation who had shown up in clothes of better quality than in what that person routinely dresses for church. All else was a general comment as I see a great lack of concern for how the general church going population adorns itself. As a child, suits and ties were worn by men almost unamimously (as I can't say for certain there existed anyone who didn't) and women wore dresses with some manner of head covering. <br /><br />Were there poor areas where this was less common? Likely so, but not for lack of trying. Not because there existed some progressive schmucks who proclaimed that such things don't matter, with the excuse that God doesn't care, that showing up is the main thing. No. The generally held attitude was that one goes out of one's way in presenting one's self in the best possible manner as an expression of honor for the Most High. <br /><br />But somewhere along the line, some hippie progressive worked to diminish the proper attitude toward God. The fool couldn't resolve the disparity between approaching God in prayer as if He is one's "daddy" and respecting the fact that the gulf between mortal man and Supreme Being is vast. <br /><br />Is how we dress for Sunday service a petty concern? Well, it's not a major concern even for me. But it's not a major effort to go the extra mile for His sake as far as my choice of clothes. He's worth better than "practical" clothes (what a crock of a rationalization!). I choose to express my reverence and honor for Him in every manner I possibly can for that single hour of the week. He is my God. To Him I owe everything. How sad that so many don't think Him more worthy than shorts and sandles, jeans and t-shirts, "practical" clothes!Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-5376334440480237832010-04-12T09:16:14.317-05:002010-04-12T09:16:14.317-05:00Entirely apart from the issue of attire, Dan, you ...Entirely apart from the issue of attire, Dan, you make a comment that ought not to be ignored.<br /><br />"<i><b>Jeff St has almost certainly done more (in terms of feeding, housing, befriending, clothing, etc) the homeless, the poor, the orphaned, the marginalized than all your churches put together (just a guess, but I think a safe one).</b></i>"<br /><br />1) This supposedly "safe" guess is grossly hypocritical. You were outraged when we dared to suggest that Jeff Street might emphasize politics and the environment to the detriment of proclaiming Christ's bodily Resurrection, and you groused that we know nothing about your church.<br /><br />Well, because we do not blog about our congregations the way you blog about yours, you know even less about our churches than we know about yours. By your own standards, you should apologize for this comment rather than pile on:<br /><br />"<i>In the sentence above that begins...<br /><br />"Jeff St has almost certainly done more (in terms of feeding..., I meant to include 'preaching and living the gospel, the good news to the poor...' but left that out. I think it's obvious to anyone who sees or reads about Jeff St at work, but too often too many have a hard time seeing the obvious, so I'll state it.</i>"<br /><br />2) This sort of guess is hardly safe for the soul who makes it: anyone who tells others that his church does more for the poor than all their churches combined, especially <b>SIGHT UNSEEN,</b> seems guilty of literally diabolical pride. He is an arrogant, boastful, preening asshole who may well already have his reward for his good deeds.<br /><br />3) Your comment about your congregation's work for the "marginalized" begs a rather obvious question about what Jeff Street does for the unborn, truly "the least of these" our brothers.<br /><br />Literally fifty million children have been killed under the legal sanction of Roe v. Wade, and it's doubtful that you and yours even recognize their right to live, to say nothing about your lifting a finger in their defense.<br /><br />4) About preaching the good news, it's not clear that you even fully understand the content of the gospel: you believe that the forgiveness of sin was not secured by Christ's death, that (contra Christ's prayers in Gethsemane) we could have been forgiven even if Jesus had lived to old age and died of natural causes.<br /><br />If its own loud-mouthed congregants don't understand the good news, it seems unlikely that Jeff Street is oh-so-very effective in preaching the good news.<br /><br /><br />I do think it's safe to say that Jeff Street does more in advancing a radical leftist political program than all our congregations combined, but I cannot offer any sincere praise for your efforts to subvert Christ's church to your own agenda.Bubbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-87361672825996345382010-04-12T08:41:44.140-05:002010-04-12T08:41:44.140-05:00Dan, my last comment Saturday was a general restat...Dan, my last comment Saturday was a general restatement of my position, not a comment directly pointed your way: after all, I didn't mention you by name as I usually do (and as I do now) and I neither quoted nor alluded to any of your specific points.<br /><br />I'll reiterate that, while one should probably ask whether his own attire reflects a proper relationship with God, one can probably draw undue conclusions about what OTHERS wear. I didn't intend to suggest that your choice of church attire is convincing proof of flippancy toward God.<br /><br />That's not to say that nothing points to flippancy on your part: there are your myriad beliefs that appear to be in direct defiance of Christ's clear teachings (see above) and your earlier <a href="http://marshallart.blogspot.com/2010/01/in-other-words.html?showComment=1264631664085#c9027431071653771470" rel="nofollow">comment</a> in another thread that Jeff Street's observance of the Lord's Supper (which you believe is merely a church tradition and not a command from Christ Himself) is a "sometimes silly" affair.<br /><br /><br />Since we're apparently not quite done, Dan, I will say that your fixation on cultural mores seems beside the point.<br /><br />While reverent dress and behavior is culturally determined, at least partially, that doesn't absolve us of the obligation of showing respect to God and to our neighbors, and the bottom line is that our behavior SHOULD be within those cultural mores most of the time.<br /><br />For instance, in the Wild West it was proper to tip one's hat to a lady in public, but I can imagine a culture where it's rude to uncover one's head: when in Rome, do as the Romans do -- EXCEPT when it's worshiping Jupiter or Caesar -- so a time-traveling anthropologist ought to show respect to the people he visits in ways that they find comfortable.<br /><br />That's not terribly controversial stuff.<br /><br /><br />Aside from that, Dan, you're simply all over the map.<br /><br />You write to me, "I'm fine with 'thoughtfulness' in attire - I've already pointed out that I do such."<br /><br />But in your very next comment, you tell Mark, "What I HAVE said is that we ought not worry about our clothes, as Jesus clearly taught."<br /><br />I'm not sure how to reconcile the former and the latter, because you seem to think that Matthew 6 forbids more than worrying about clothes' provision: you invoke the teaching as if it forbids that thoughtfulness that you now say is fine.<br /><br />(If that's not why you're repeatedly bringing up Matthew 6, then just what is the point you're trying to make?)<br /><br />And, on the one hand, you suggest that God doesn't care about what we wear...<br /><br />"<i>I'm not suggesting we ought not recognize the difference between God and God's creation. In fact, I'm suggesting the exact opposite: That God does not care about our human fashions.</i>"<br /><br />...but then you refer to "godly" attire.<br /><br />You refer to your jeans and a tee-shirt as "my best, by what I think come closer to Godly standards, rather than merely cultural ones."<br /><br />Your criticism can be that we ought not to have any standards in this one area, or that we have the wrong standards, but not both: your position seems inconsistent and is therefore incomprehensible.Bubbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-29451478387525110002010-04-12T08:35:25.805-05:002010-04-12T08:35:25.805-05:00Tell you what, Mom2: I'm a reasonable guy. I W...Tell you what, Mom2: I'm a reasonable guy. I WANT to know God. I WANT to walk in God's ways. I WANT to know God's salvation and grace.<br /><br />That being the case, I am open to being taught. I happen to believe that I am ENTIRELY fallible and able to be mistaken.<br /><br />Come by my blog or send me an email and tell me what exact "my error" is in any regards, not just on my sartorial tastes. This is your chance to, graciously and kindly, show me the error of my ways.<br /><br />A suggestion: Begin by saying, "Dan, when you say..." and quote me and explain why what I've actually SAID is mistaken or in error.<br /><br />Help me. Teach me. I'll wipe out our history and listen with a fresh and open mind.<br /><br />Here's your chance.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-60797859912144514302010-04-12T08:34:41.794-05:002010-04-12T08:34:41.794-05:00Dan, You waste so much time. Get a life and WORK!...Dan, You waste so much time. Get a life and WORK! Stop your pious preaching kid! I am not going to stay on a computer all day with someone so mixed up and so happy in it. Have a good day! mom2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-85906964495924906792010-04-12T08:18:41.205-05:002010-04-12T08:18:41.205-05:00Mom2 said...
I wanted to help Dan see error, but ...Mom2 said...<br /><br /><i>I wanted to help Dan see error, but I have long ago decided that one of his best friends is the author of lies and have given up on him.</i><br /><br />Okay, here's your chance to not snipe, but teach, to help a brother see his "error."<br /><br />WHAT is my error? WHAT is the error of Jeff St? Not providing suits and ties for our homeless friends? Is that really what you want to criticize me and us for?<br /><br />Here's your chance, sister. Help me out. Teach me. What is my error.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-5390019264805110012010-04-12T08:16:14.328-05:002010-04-12T08:16:14.328-05:00And yet, in this case, you were in error, for pres...And yet, in this case, you were in error, for presuming that we were doing nothing for the poor and homeless and for presuming to tell us that we "ought" to be providing suits and ties for them to "look nice" for no particular reason but your own cultural prejudices.<br /><br />You ridiculously say, "You talk a good talk but you evidently don't walk the walk." and when I point out that we walk the walk a helluva lot further than you likely do, sister, you have nothing but more sniping. It's what you do. You don't make constructive criticisms, you snipe.<br /><br />Perhaps you don't recognize this about your own comments, I don't know, but go back and read what you've written. Snipe, snipe, snipe. Over and over you offer unsupported criticism, just like your implication that we weren't doing enough for the homeless based on NOT EVEN KNOWING what we do or don't do. What you knew is that our homeless friends may not always be well-dressed (by your prissy worldly standards) and thus, you assume that we're not doing enough.<br /><br />Give it up. Live in Grace sister, the same grace by which we are saved. It ought to be an identifying feature of your life, let it be. Life's too precious and the community of God too dear to spend our time sniping at each other.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9149193.post-16898210579020329752010-04-12T07:48:50.888-05:002010-04-12T07:48:50.888-05:00Dan likes to characterize me as one who snipes and...Dan likes to characterize me as one who snipes and runs. Not true! I also was replying to a comment that I think he deleted and it was as Marshall said, he told the story about all the unfortunates attending his church. I have read and replied to Dan's posts for several years now and since I share my computer with other family members, I am not on the computer all day long, thus Dan thinks I have run away. He has such a wild imagination! I wanted to help Dan see error, but I have long ago decided that one of his best friends is the author of lies and have given up on him. I do hope someone can help him! mom2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com